What exactly is a good set of pipes?

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

You wonder if we will ever agree on this. Someone will tell you the best sound comes from ebony. Another guy says it doesn't matter what kind of wood you use - indeed, why not use polymer, or K&S brass.
Is there anything pipemakers and pipers agree on about pipes? Things that without question help the way it plays and sounds? Putting aside the matter of what it looks like for the moment.
It would be nice to enforce some kind of standards, or sponsor some real debate among these guys, so we can get our $6000 worth. Or have a universal resource for these topics, like Terry McGee's flute website, where he goes over the pros and cons of everything involved in wooden flutes, much of it from his perspective as a maker but then again it is his business.
Things like the bore with one taper versus more complicated designs. Give us some pros and cons.
And on the subject of apperance, how about this:




That's a set of pipes. How about some more slavish imitation of those kinds of turnings and shapes, guys?

[boyd]

I wouldn't mind WHAT the pipes look like if they are ones that are permanently in tune with themselves, nice tone and not too hard to squeeze.

Looks can help a buyer's first impression if you're selling.....but with a set of pipes that work, you wouldn't be selling, would you?

Boyd

" my avatar is not too far " ...thanks to chattiekathy!

[Rick]

A good set of pipes for me would be one that sounds like i want
and plays when and where ever i take it out of the case.

That's what it boils down to in the end.., what is good for you.
Ebony is good for me.

[Steampacket]

Hmm... a good set of pipes, a set that looks good and also sounds good, easy to reed, doesn't need holes taped to be it tune, or stuff shoved up the bores in order to be in tune or in the correct pitch... I think I know the answer - get hold of a set by Dave Williams or Geoff Wooff

[Rick]

I think I know the answer - get hold of a set by Dave Williams or Geoff Wooff

Not necessarilly.

[djm]

I'd have to agree with Rick, there. A set by the most renowned makers does not guarantee success. Once a reed starts to fail you're going to need a new one, and if the new one doesn't suit your set, you end up going down the long path of dissatisfaction that so many people seem to voice.

And when it comes to any reed, nobody agrees what is the nicest sound. This goes for both chanter and drones. Some want bright and ringing, some prefer smooth and mellow.

How's this for an idea: replace the regs with free-reeds, i.e. the type used in accordians, concertinas and harmonicas? If they were tuned and set to match the tone of cane reed regs, they would always be in tune, and more forgiving of variances in pressure.

djm

[Lorenzo]

What exactly is a good set of pipes?

Poor Pipes: everything resembling cheap look alikes, esp from that
SW section of the continent of Asia.

Good pipes: any pipes that work half of the time or more and sound okay.

Excellent Pipes: Any set of pipes that sound incredibly fine, keys are all
easy to reach, always notes out perfect with excellent reeds, tone is pure
and fantastic, volume is easily adjustable with reed adjustment or rushes,
retail value is about twice that of Good Pipes, wood is stable and cured
perfectly while weight and thickness of the wood is perfect, chanter feels
natural in hands, the set of pipes continually please the player, the best
pipers are always offering to unload them from you.

I always had this dream that someone like BK tampered with your pipes,
with your permission of course, and did something (heaven only knows)
and he suddenly wishes it were his because there's nothing like it, it plays
sooooo perfect, but it's definitely yours and there's nothing he can do but
send it back to you.

[sturob]

I think Kevin asks a difficult but important question.

Let me give you an example . . . Like many, I started out on highland pipes. Over in highland-land, it's all about drones. It was for me, anyway, since most of the competing I did was in a band (which issued the chanters) so you didn't really have to think about chanters. What made a good set of pipes ended up being drones you could easily reed, which would then "lock" in tune and have a nice ring to them. Aesthetics were kind of secondary, and I'm still partial to military spec drones ("full ivory" mounts with no metal).

Then I moved into bellows pipes, smallpipes and borders. Borders were a real challenge. Sheesh, they're SO testy, a little variation in pressure and the pitch is all over. I have a set made by "THE" border pipe maker, and was constantly having trouble with the chanter and occasionally with the drones. Certain notes would skirl or squeal or make a horrible noise if my arm pressure made the slightest hiccup, and the drones were acutely sensitive to bag pressure. I called the maker several times and ended up with a new reed, and with a couple of lectures as to how difficult the border pipes are to play.

Somewhere in here I started playing uilleann pipes. Now there's a bellows-blown pipe! I still like the Scottish stuff, but it's fun to play an instrument as versatile as the uilleanns when you come from the Scottish tradition. But what's this? A pipe whose chanter you've got to overblow into the second octave? But the drones remain relatively stable through that . . . now if the uilleann drones can sit there while we jump octaves, what's keeping that from happening with the "exceedingly difficult" border pipes?

So, new reeds for the border drones, and eventually, a new chanter from another maker. And what happened? While not as insensitive to pressure as a set of uilleanns, here's a set of pipes that's actually playable. Don't get me wrong; I practiced and practiced to get to where my bag pressure was ABSOLUTELY ROCK STABLE so I could play the borders, and I felt like I'd accomplished something . . . but was it all necessary . . .

I guess my eventual advancement to the uilleanns taught me some important things about bagpipe design and about what's possible in a bellows-blown pipe. And maybe it just illustrates my ignorance, but I also tell the story to show that it's difficult to say what makes a good set of pipes when your expectations are unreasonable. I thought that my first set of border pipes were the pinnacle of pipemaking because of the source. And, I worked really hard (and learned important skills, certainly) to get to where I could play those pipes really well, all the time hearing from several sources that the style of pipes is really difficult. Then I played another species of pipe, and found that its design got rid of some of those problems. So I readjusted my idea of "what makes a good set of pipes," and then became much happier both with myself and with the pipes.

So, part of the question is expectation . . . what's reasonable?

I hope that made sense!

Stuart

[boyd]

sturob wrote:

I hope that made sense!

Stuart

Piping pathophysiology in motion !!

Boyd

" my avatar is not too far " thanks to chattiekathy

[elbogo]

Kevin, do you actually keep your set of pipes under glass??

As a beginner, I used to think that trying to get a chanter by one of the "great" pipe-makers was the key to it. Then, getting mostly sqounky sounds, led me to think that I had to get a specific kind of chanter that corresponded to the true (correct) sound of the Uilleann pipes, which might be: bright and airy; or hard, yet clear and sonorous; or more bell-like and soft, or, or... what(?) and then got confused, as each of these possess their own merits and are equally "correct." Depending on who plays them, of course, turns out to be the key.

I remember my first lesson, with Patrick D'Arcy, oddly enough, and I told him how I loved the sound of Spillanes' pipes... Pat promptly began to play "Spillane", to my amazement!

I think it boils down to the simple fact that, if one has a good, well-made set of pipes, that are in tune, with a good reed... and has learned over many years HOW to play them, they are in possession of "a good set of pipes."

[Brian Lee]

REPRODUCEABILITY.

I'd like to know that X chanter, or X reed will work in X manner all the time (taking into account climate and such.

I think if there were some form of standardization within the pipemaking community we might see some of this come to pass. Now I'm not suggesting that every makerstop innovating, but rather if there was some sort of industry standard that EVERYONE could easily reproduce with known playing characteristics - and one reed design that offered the same in the afore mentioned chanter.

Makers could (and I belive) should continue to experiment but should all be able to offer a standard instrument perhaps with their own asthetic embelishments.

For example, you could call up Seth Gallagher, or Geoff Wooff, or Rogge or whoever and ask for the "Bohem standard" bore with a standard "Bohem reed" (only borrowing from flutes to make a point here).

EVERY maker could know exactly what the requrements were for the bore, and the reed to play exactly the same each time. Extensive measurements and plans would of course need to be both undertaken, and also widely distributed to make this happen.

It's all an unattainable dream I fear however, due to the fact that settling on this one design may very well lead us back to the begining of this thread in the first place.

Catch 22.

B~

[Tony]

Brian, are you saying every maker should build exactly from the same set of plans?

Then who do you go to if you want a louder chanter, or a sweeter sounding chanter if they're all doing EXACTLY the same thing??

Part of the attraction is finding a maker who interprets a 'stardard design' (Rowesome, for example) to suit his likes in both sound and feel.

Then maker A becomes known for strong vibrant instruments and maker B is known for sweet mellow instruments.

----

A good set of pipes means different things to different people.

Probably the common most requests would be durable construction and consistant peroformance over time.

[brianc]

A good set of pipes means different things to different people.

--Tony

............

This is the only possible, and only logical answer to the question posed.

[stew]

What make's a good set of pipes is not how flashy they look
whether brass or nickle silver fitted with loads of ivory, what makes a good set of pipes is a good craftsman with a good design who'm understands exactly how they work and play.

[Brian Lee]

Brian, are you saying every maker should build exactly from the same set of plans?

Then who do you go to if you want a louder chanter, or a sweeter sounding chanter if they're all doing EXACTLY the same thing??

Part of the attraction is finding a maker who interprets a 'stardard design' (Rowesome, for example) to suit his likes in both sound and feel.

Then maker A becomes known for strong vibrant instruments and maker B is known for sweet mellow instruments.

Only in one aspect Tony.

I was saying it would be nice to ask for this "standard" type of sound/bore/reed/playability from a particular maker - and while it may still be entirely reproduceable in the previously mentioned aspects, it could still look like a Rogge or Gallager or whatever on the outside. Does that make a little more sense? They could each do their own style of thing with keywork, wood types, etc. etc. (without changing hole depths, undercutting, bore lengths, bore diameters, or things like this that would change playability and tuning) but the chanter would play exactly the same way as any other makers due to it's internal design.

I'm not saying that makers shouldn't come up with their own more individualized works as well - I think that's great. But without some form of standardization as with GHP's you'll never ever see a reliable "good set of pipes" that anyone can/will agree on I think.

As I said, it's a catch 22. Nice to dream about though. Perhaps someday when someone invents one of those matter creating boxes like from star wars...or star trek or whatever it was. You'd just have to say: "Computer. Uilleann pipes. Sweet." And twinkle-twinkle...they would magicly appear in front of you and be the same awesome set every time!

Nanu Nanu!!!

B~