why does it sound monotonous?

faydo · Post by **faydo** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 3:57 pm

I'm hoping someone can help me figure this one out...I've been playing tin whistle for a little over a year and, although I've learned lots of good tunes, they don't seem to have any "texture", I suppose, to them. I think it could have something to do with the t-t-t's. (The tonguing on certain notes). Is there a rule encrypted anywhere in the whistle scriptures as to when to t-t-t and when not to? Any additional advice would be great

Tnks!
faydo

TelegramSam · Post by **TelegramSam** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 3:58 pm

tonguing is used only sparingly in Irish music, at least most of what I've heard. Most players opt for ornamentation like cuts, etc instead, at least those who can do them (i.e. not me).

feadogin · Post by **feadogin** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 4:05 pm

Yes, sparingly. I am pretty sure that tonguing is usually done only on the downbeat, too.

antstastegood · Post by **antstastegood** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 4:10 pm

Since I currently stink at ornaments, I am working on a way to staple-gun my tongue to the floor of my mouth.

*CLICK-PING*

Muck be'er.

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 4:13 pm

If you do want to play Irish traditional stuff, read the section on tonguing (and all the rest) here;

http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/

chas · Post by **chas** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 6:19 pm

Damn, Bloomfield, you've beat me to it again!

Faydo, for those t-t-t's: if there's, say a jig with an f-f-f in it, rather than paying it like:

f-(tongue)f-(tongue)f

it's generally played:

f-(cut)f-(tap)f

where the cut represents lifting one of the fingers, say L3 (the one covering the G hole), and the tap represents tapping with R2 (the E finger). These ornaments are done very quickly so that they sound just like blips. This is called a roll, and it's one of the bases of Irish dance music.

Brother Steve's, the site Bloomfield referred to, covers this very nicely.

If you want to hear how it's done in recorded music I'd recommend Transcribe, a shareware program that slows down music without changing the pitches. You can actually hear cuts, taps, and rolls.

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 6:28 pm

faydo wrote:I'm hoping someone can help me figure this one out...I've been playing tin whistle for a little over a year and, although I've learned lots of good tunes, they don't seem to have any "texture", I suppose, to them. I think it could have something to do with the t-t-t's. (The tonguing on certain notes). Is there a rule encrypted anywhere in the whistle scriptures as to when to t-t-t and when not to? Any additional advice would be great

Tnks!
faydo

Before you get into technique and all that. You are learning tunes by ear, without sheet music, right?

And I don't mean off abc/midi files. If you're not you should: that will be the best way to get rid of a monotonous sound.

Chas, if you're going to use cuts/taps on jigs, you probably want to go slur, slur, tap[cut].

TonyHiggins · Post by **TonyHiggins** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 6:41 pm

If your ego can stand it, you can post a tune to Clips & Snips and ask for feedback. Or, if you like, you can email me a clip and I'll give you private feedback. There's instructions for doing this on the clip site.
Tony

colomon · Post by **colomon** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 6:49 pm

Let me second Bloomfield here -- that website is great, and starts with the simple truth that there is no single right answer to how much to tongue when playing Irish tunes on whistle.

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 6:52 pm

colomon wrote:Let me second Bloomfield here ...

I think the last thing we need is a second Bloomfield here.

colomon · Post by **colomon** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 7:00 pm

But occasionally you say something sensible!

I wouldn't worry too much about learning by ear, but I would make an effort to seek out good old solo/duet recordings and spend a lot of time listening to them. Joe Cooley's album is a great example... style oozing from every pore.

Eldarion · Post by **Eldarion** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:24 am

My guess is that your issue is not so much of a textural one than it is a rhythmical one. (ok ok.. semantics) Rhythm is a big factor when playing Irish tunes, and I think its the thing that makes the music catchy and dynamic - instead of dead and monotonous. As mentioned above, breaking away from playing to midi files and over-relying on sheet music will help. Learning your tunes by ear will help a lot too, cos when you do so you are able to pick up a lot more rhythmic detail with these precision audio analytic devices we call, ears.

Also as mentioned above, listening to good players often is also very important. It helps you familiarise yourself with the rhythms of the music. Your ears also become more and more sensitive to the nuances of the music with more listening. And what you have left to do, is put in some practice and voila you get lively Irish music.

And I also think its a common misconception that traditional Irish whistling has little tonguing in it. A lot of great traditional players tongue quite a bit and in fact I would think that those that tongue very sparingly would be in the minority camp..

Cyfiawnder · Post by **Cyfiawnder** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 5:07 am

Hey tony that reminds me. My ego tree could use some chopping down and I haven't posted anything a clips n snips for a while... I'll have to do that one of these days...

brewerpaul · Post by **brewerpaul** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:27 am

Eldarion wrote:My guess is that your issue is not so much of a textural one than it is a rhythmical one. (ok ok.. semantics) Rhythm is a big factor when playing Irish tunes, and I think its the thing that makes the music catchy and dynamic - instead of dead and monotonous. ..

I totally agree with that! Remember, this is largely DANCE music, and you need to make the music dance too. Listen to as much good music as you can, and try to get a feel for the "lilt" or "lift" of the music-- where the accents come, etc. Going to live sessions is really helpful too-- you'll pick up some of that feel by playing along with good players.
Although I had been playing recorder for about 20 years, and was pretty good at it , by the time I started whistle, this was tough for me to get the feel of.

FJohnSharp · Post by **FJohnSharp** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:04 am

I played about a year before I started lessons. I found it harder by the way, to break all my bad habits than it was to learn new things. One of the things I was doing was a lot of tonguing. The first thing he had me do was stop. It really helped a lot.

But, I suspect that tonguing is not the only thing that makes you think your music is flat. I recently had my teacher tell me that I needed to be more musical--to give the tune more feel. If I listen objectively, I can hear what he means, but I cannot fix it. The problem is that I spend all my energy on the technical aspect, just trying to get the fingering and the breathing right, that I can't make it more musical. When I think about learning my other instrument I remember that it took a while before I was thinking less about the technical part and just letting it come to me so I was able to work on the musicality. I suppose that there are people who can do it all at the same time. Not me. I'm just a regular schlub. I gotta work at it a bit at a time.

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why does it sound monotonous?

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