Soprano C Bore Size

raindog1970 · Post by **raindog1970** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:11 am

I know that several whistle makers use the same kind of pipe to make the barrels of their soprano C whistles that they use for their soprano Eb and D barrels... so allowing the possibility to make Eb/D/C sets with three barrels and a single head.
Some makers even go so far as to make B-natural and Bb whistles from the same kind of pipe as their soprano Eb and D whistles, but this practice definitely seems to be pushing the length/bore ratio beyond a reasonable limit.
Maybe it's just me, but I find that the bore of a soprano C barrel needs to be a bit larger than that of a soprano Eb or D.
Making them all the same diameter causes the soprano C to have a considerably weaker tone, and the lower notes want to jump to the 2nd octave far too easily.
This problem can be lessened to some degree by moving the blade farther away from the windway exit, but it then becomes harder to reach the upper notes on the Eb and D... not a compromise I'm happy with.
Even the makers of mass-produced cheapies use a larger bore size for their soprano C barrels, and this same larger bore also produces a very pleasant sounding wide bore soprano D.
I think that perhaps the best options to offer in whistle sets would be an Eb/D combo, and a wide bore D/C combo... anyone care to comment on this?

chas · Post by **chas** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:21 am

I think it depends on what you have to work with. Glenn Schultz makes a C/D/Eb PVC set. I've only played one of these, but I would say that the C tube is weak as you suggested. The D is excellent, as is the Eb. I love his E PVC whistle, too, but others find it obnoxiously loud and shrill. He makes each of his wooden whistles a different diameter. I think the wooden D has a very similar character to the PVC, although it has a richness and complexity that you don't get from PVC. The E is a much narower bore, thus it isn't as loud and shrill. The C is bigger, and it is simply one of the finest whistles on the planet; it couldn't possibly be more different from the narrow-bore PVC whistle.

I also have old-style wide-bore brass whistles from Mike Burke. These are 9/16 ID whistles; very big for a D, normal for a C. Here again, I think the D is a remarkable whistle, but the C is somehow lacking something. This is probably just me, as I know Tyghress just loves the Burke C of the same vintage.

So I'm all for individual diameters of whistles, but then I'm really a Schultz devotee.

jonharl · Post by **jonharl** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:36 am

I have a Sindt D and C and the bore size is different. The Sindt C is awesome, especially with the larger bore.

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 12:25 pm

raindog1970 wrote:I think that perhaps the best options to offer in whistle sets would be an Eb/D combo, and a wide bore D/C combo... anyone care to comment on this?

I think you're on the right track.

Best wishes,
Jerry

elendil · Post by **elendil** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 8:03 pm

I started a post on Clarkes and Shaws last week for the same reason: I've been looking for a good C whistle, but not too expensive. That's right, I want everything! In that thread I specifically pointed out my experience with those interchangeable tubes. I think most of us have had that experience and would agree that the C tube ends up being the weak one of the litter. Serpent tried to make me a polymer C recently, but ran into difficulties caused, I believe, by the lack of polymer tubing in the proper diameter.

raindog1970 · Post by **raindog1970** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 8:22 pm

elendil wrote:I started a post on Clarkes and Shaws last week for the same reason: I've been looking for a good C whistle, but not too expensive. That's right, I want everything! In that thread I specifically pointed out my experience with those interchangeable tubes. I think most of us have had that experience and would agree that the C tube ends up being the weak one of the litter. Serpent tried to make me a polymer C recently, but ran into difficulties caused, I believe, by the lack of polymer tubing in the proper diameter.

Well, it's something that I've expeimented with quite a bit today... and I believe that I have found an acceptable compromose for Eb/D/C sets.
The C tube still ends up being the weaker of the three, but not beyond what I'd consider acceptable... and I'm quite picky.
I wouldn't dare go lower with the same tubing, unless it would be to make a B-natural with a larger windowed head than for the Eb/D/C set... and even then I think a larger bore would be preferable.
Glenn Schultz pulls it off, so I know that it's possible... but that really would be pushing the length/bore ratio to its absolute limit for 1/2" CPVC.
It is unquestionably best to use a slightly larger bore for a C than for an Eb and a D, but there are limitations when using PVC that we just have to work around as best we can... but I still believe PVC is still a great choice of material for whistle making.

serpent · Post by **serpent** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 8:23 pm

raindog1970 wrote:I know that several whistle makers use the same kind of pipe to make the barrels of their soprano C whistles that they use for their soprano Eb and D barrels... so allowing the possibility to make Eb/D/C sets with three barrels and a single head.
Some makers even go so far as to make B-natural and Bb whistles from the same kind of pipe as their soprano Eb and D whistles, but this practice definitely seems to be pushing the length/bore ratio beyond a reasonable limit.
Maybe it's just me, but I find that the bore of a soprano C barrel needs to be a bit larger than that of a soprano Eb or D.
Making them all the same diameter causes the soprano C to have a considerably weaker tone, and the lower notes want to jump to the 2nd octave far too easily.
This problem can be lessened to some degree by moving the blade farther away from the windway exit, but it then becomes harder to reach the upper notes on the Eb and D... not a compromise I'm happy with.
Even the makers of mass-produced cheapies use a larger bore size for their soprano C barrels, and this same larger bore also produces a very pleasant sounding wide bore soprano D.
I think that perhaps the best options to offer in whistle sets would be an Eb/D combo, and a wide bore D/C combo... anyone care to comment on this?

I just sent a B-flat whistle to a tester the other day. I commented on it here, but nobody seemed to take notice. Anyhow, the B-flat gets an astounding 4-1/2 octaves (!!)

, and uses the same tube as my standard D Village Smithy, 0.555 ID. I will grant you that the Bb bell note is a little less strong than the D would be, but there are ZERO problems with octave shifts, and no shrillness at all, until you're beyond 4th octave Bb.

I know that flies in the face of conventional "wisdom" on this subject, but hey, facts is facts. Let's wait for the reviewer to let us know what he thinks. I have not said a thing to him about what he's getting, not wishing to poison the pot.

There's more to this whistle-building stuff than meets the eye...

serpent

(edit) A note on Elendil's C whistle - I did find a proper ID for a C based on conventional wisdom, but the OD was so great as to make it impossible to properly do octaves or crossfingering, without turning down the outside to reduce "chimney effect", which obviates it being "inexpensive"... too much handwork. We agreed to let it go. I gave the C to a friend of mine who doesn't mind the extra blow for the octave, and the need to do oxoooo for Bb. (/edit)

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 8:41 pm

elendil wrote:I've been looking for a good C whistle, but not too expensive.

I have two words for you: Mack Hoover. He'll make you a quiet one or a real loud one, and it's a beauty either way. I looked for a long time for good C that wasn't too expensive, and finally settled on a Hoover with conical aluminum body, white head, enormous voicing window. Very loud, but nice round tone. And i'm not even telling what it cost me!

brewerpaul · Post by **brewerpaul** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:48 am

I've been doing some experimenting with Eb and C, using the same tubing dimensions. This is not with an eye towards making sets ( visually, I like the whole whistle to be made from one piece of wood) but for the simple reason that tooling up to make different diameter whistles would require a lot of very expensive stuff: drdilling jigs, turning arbors, metal fittings, etc.
I have made one prototype C body, and it is a bit weaker than the D, but not by much. I put an existing D head on it, but with a dedicated C head with a bit different voicing, I think that could be largely remedied. Eb does not seem to be a problem at all. I do agree that anything lower than C would be pushing things too far.
Watch this space for further announcements....

PhilO · Post by **PhilO** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 7:24 am

I have a WW set in which the C is hardly weak; rather it is either as strong as or stronger than the D or E (I'd have to go back and play it again) and the fit of the tubes seems to indicate that the set was made to the C; is that impossible? The C tube whooshes on with that perfect tolerance hydraulic sound and feel; the others fit well, but not like that.

I've noticed that it's difficult to get or hear about awesome C whistles and I wonder if it's simply that the C is so close to the D that the sound doesn't grab us very much. The best C whistles I've had are Walton Golden Tone, Sindt, WW and Silkstone PVC. The only one I'd rave about is the Walton, because it's so cheap and so good.

Someday, I'll have a really freaky good Copeland C...

PhilO

elendil · Post by **elendil** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 7:12 pm

glauber: when mack had his recent sale i bid on a whistle exactly as you describe. you didn't sneak it away from me, did you?

i didn't think to ask him to build me one special--instead i inflicted myself on serpent's patience. i have one of mack's Bb cylindrical aluminum cum whitecap jobs, and i like it very well, indeed. maybe i need to get in touch with him again.
serpent's .55 Bb tube sounds like it might be just about perfect for C, as well. i wonder what the material is? i didn't notice his other post

Daniel_Bingamon · Post by **Daniel_Bingamon** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 8:46 pm

Bore size is pretty flexible when it comes to the first two octaves. After that, proper bore size makes the octaves above that easier to hit. The quality of voicing (ie. fipple design) allows the builder to make whistles that push the limits.

On my high whistles, I've made them from Bb to G with the same bore size and they have worked well.

Back a few years ago when I first started out, I couldn't that. So when you hear that Serpent, Glenn Shultz and others are working with single sizes - they do work. Maybe we should state the Length/Bore ratio for whistles in the specifications.

raindog1970 · Post by **raindog1970** » Sat Nov 01, 2003 9:35 pm

brewerpaul wrote:I have made one prototype C body, and it is a bit weaker than the D, but not by much. I put an existing D head on it, but with a dedicated C head with a bit different voicing, I think that could be largely remedied.

You're on the right track with that line of thinking, Paul.
My soprano C is just a bit too weak for my liking with the standard soprano D head on it, but works very nicely with one of my C heads, which has a 1/64" larger window.
The C head on a soprano Eb or D makes the upper notes a wee bit harder to hit, but it's a necessary compromise if I want to make Eb/D/C sets... and I still haven't decided that the compromise is worth it or not.

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Soprano C Bore Size

Soprano C Bore Size

Re: Soprano C Bore Size

Re: Soprano C Bore Size