Serpent versus Burke whistles

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:15 am

UPDATE: I was just informed that Serpent doesn't hate me so I don't hate him.

Feud's over.

PhilO · Post by **PhilO** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:22 am

Bill, stop wasting time and get to work on that whistle design, as stated above in this thread...Bflat would be nice.

Regards,

PhilO

serpent · Post by **serpent** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:25 am

PhilO wrote:Bill, stop wasting time and get to work on that whistle design, as stated above in this thread...Bflat would be nice.

Regards,

PhilO

Yes SIR!!! Right away SIR!!!
:roll:
serpent

aderyn_du · Post by **aderyn_du** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:35 am

burnsbyrne wrote: I spent decades not trying things because I thought I would not be perfect at it on the first go-round.

Zoob's words were full of wisdom, indeed!

I too have struggled with the perfection-on-the-first-go-round thought process for many years; I am now finally starting to see the light and setting aside this notion to go forth and achieve what's been in my heart for ages. I see more and more people doing this and feel like it's a widespread shift in perception.

Cran and Serpent are both good people-- glad to hear that the imagined mini-bruhaha has a happy ending.

~Andrea

elendil · Post by **elendil** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 6:50 pm

PhilO said:

Bill, stop wasting time and get to work on that whistle design, as stated above in this thread...Bflat would be nice.

pipe down--bill says he's working on a polly C for me!

PhilO · Post by **PhilO** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 8:38 pm

elendil wrote:PhilO said:

Bill, stop wasting time and get to work on that whistle design, as stated above in this thread...Bflat would be nice.
pipe down--bill says he's working on a polly C for me!

Yes'm...yes'm....

PhilO

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 10:03 am

Did someone mention wooden high Ds a while ago? Well, Abell, Busman and Thin Weasel are amongst my favourite high Ds—my Busman is my current favourite. Each has a fairly pure sound with just a bit of chiff and each has a lovely singing second octave. They are each very responsive. The Thin Weasel is louder than the Abell or Busman but not at all shrill. The Busman is, IMO, the best value for money, but, as I said, it's my current favourite without regard for considerations of cost. I haven't yet tried one of Davey Boisvert's whistles but have one on order and will be interested to see how it compares with the others. I've never played a Grinter high D but, from my experience with other Grinters, I'd expect it also to be an exceptionally good whistle, most likely more chiffy than most.

I think Burkes come closest of any metal whistles to getting that pure singing tone I associate with the finest wooden whistles.

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 12:07 pm

Hello, Wombat,

is the Busman as loud as the Thin Weasel?

Have you tried a Water Weasel? I can find very little difference in sound between mine and a couple of boxwood T.Ws i've tried (but the wooden whistles had more "backpressure" in the second octave, while mine (PVC) is basically free blowing).

Just curious,

g

Tyghress · Post by **Tyghress** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 4:54 pm

Here's an interesting point, Glauber, when using a decibel meter thingy (I can't remember the proper name, but you know what I mean) the Busman comes out louder than most every soprano D I tried...but it sure doesn't sound louder. More overtones, a 'fuzzier' sound...

I don't know if this is just my instruments (pinkivory Busman, rosewood TW, and a WW).

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:26 am

Tyghress wrote:Here's an interesting point, Glauber, when using a decibel meter thingy (I can't remember the proper name, but you know what I mean) the Busman comes out louder than most every soprano D I tried...but it sure doesn't sound louder. More overtones, a 'fuzzier' sound...

I don't know if this is just my instruments (pinkivory Busman, rosewood TW, and a WW).

Over here, the thingy is called a "sonometer".
It's very sensitive to proper distance to the sound source, and should come with frequency correction tables.

Our ear is more sensitive to high frequencies, which we interpret as "noisier" for equal acoustic pressure, while bass will influence a sonometer more, relatively speaking.

All in all, a good sound analyzing software hooked to a decent mike may be more interesting than the dB reading of a sonometer.

However, I don't know if the ear is more influenced by the peaks of a given sound pattern, or by its full envelope (or integral).

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Sun Oct 19, 2003 5:54 am

glauber wrote:Hello, Wombat,

is the Busman as loud as the Thin Weasel?

Not to my technologically unaided ears. In fact quite the opposite. I'm not sure how it would fare on Tyghress's test nor am I sure how Zubivka's considerations complicate the issue. The Weasel sounds louder and this is most noticable on the higher notes but the Weasel doesn't sound unbalanced so I asume it's fairly loud over both octaves.

I recall someone testing whistles for loudness and reporting the results here about six months ago. (Was it you James?) I remember that the readings for different whistles were in fact very close except for Susatos which were distinctly louder than the other tested whistles and this despite fairly consistent subjective impressions that certain other whistles were relatively loud.

glauber wrote:Have you tried a Water Weasel? I can find very little difference in sound between mine and a couple of boxwood T.Ws i've tried (but the wooden whistles had more "backpressure" in the second octave, while mine (PVC) is basically free blowing).

Just curious,

g

I haven't tried a Water Weasel yet. I was going to get one on loan, not a D though, but the owner now needs it so I probably won't get the chance to play one soon. I'm sure there would be a few people here who could do a direct comparison.

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:48 am

Nah, wasn't me this time...I've never figured out a way to measure volume of an instrument in a consistent, meaningful way.

Also I know from my experiences recording comparisons (where you can "see" volume on Goldwave's display) that subjective volume is often quite different than objective volume.

On whistles, for instance, Susatos sound louder than they are, and Feadogs are in actuality louder than they sound, so that on the screen there's not much difference in the output of the whistles.

Also on flute any kind of measured volume comparison would be meaningless--with flutes, you just develop a feel over time of what each flute is capable of and where it's "sweet spot" is.

Best wishes,

--James

PhilO · Post by **PhilO** » Sun Oct 19, 2003 11:28 am

Ok, I have the three whistles in front of me, and did this pretty subjectively and unscientifically, which is I guess all you need if one's deciding which to buy or use based on loudness.

First, as expected they are all crafted very much alike as Glenn made two of them and Paul studied with Glenn. Tone hole size, spacing and shape is about the same on all three as is mouthpiece design (including for the most part windway and blade). Tube bore diameters are about the same, maybe a really tiny larger in the TW, and the WW has a thicker wall than the other two. TW is cocobolo (and about 12 years old), Busman is bocote, and WW is PVC. I include this because I'm not sure what impact these elements may have on loudness.

I played and then played again and recorded and listened (simpleton science).

It was really hard to distinguish a difference in loudness among the three, which are all relatively loud. If anything the TW was the loudest and this may be more due to the tonality than the volume of sound. The TW was the most piercing, while the Busman was the warmest sound, most noably in the upper octave.

Thanks for the incentive to pull out these whistles; I like them all.

Regards,

PhilO

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Sun Oct 19, 2003 11:42 am

PhilO wrote: It was really hard to distinguish a difference in loudness among the three, which are all relatively loud. If anything the TW was the loudest and this may be more due to the tonality than the volume of sound. The TW was the most piercing, while the Busman was the warmest sound, most noably in the upper octave.

Well, this pretty much agrees with my observations I think. I agree that the Busman has the warmest sound.

PhilO wrote: TW is cocobolo (and about 12 years old), Busman is bocote, and WW is PVC. I include this because I'm not sure what impact these elements may have on loudness.

Not much by the look of it. My TW is honduras rose, my Busman is a blackwood head on pink ivory tube.

PhilO wrote: Thanks for the incentive to pull out these whistles; I like them all.

Regards,

PhilO

My pleasure Phil. They are superb whistles aren't tehy?

Jetboy · Post by **Jetboy** » Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:26 pm

dublingirl wrote: I'm also wondering if there are any wooden whistles which have a pure tone & require only a little air, especially in the upper register?

Phil Bleazey makes a fabulous wooden whistle that does exactly what you want.
He is on the net, but cannot remember the address other than it is a .co.uk one . Check him out.

Jetboy

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Serpent versus Burke whistles

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