OT: Just curious . . . .

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Tak_the_whistler
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Post by Tak_the_whistler »

Cranberry, you've a point worth noted. :)

--------------------------------

Mind you, I'm not here to criticise Sarah, but I'm going to make some points; Suppose similar case was caused by X.

X introduced to Chiff and Fipple a performative sentence of defining President Bush as Fascist. Now, just because X's provocative speech act excludes declarations (allowed only to higher authorities i.e.e.g. King Dale), commissives (unless you're asking for a date), and directives (Need answers?), it does not necesarrily seperate X from his/her responsibility of having displayed the other two speech act, representatives ("I think Bush is nice and all"), and expressives ("I'm just being emotional"). The former may have been what X have chosen with a view to "see if the masses would be aroused" as suggested by few. If this indeed is X's intention, then it follows that S has failed to fulfill the felicity conditions of the pragmatic presupposition which juxtaposes Cooperative Principle. This brings us to *assume* that X may have went wide off the mark of Cooperative Principle proposed by H.P.Grice, but so have and do and will we, as well. Anyway, What is a CP? briefly put, it's a rule to be kept if one is to have a healthy conversation with another. It consists of four elements. Good many number of know-it-alls failed to realise this because it was, unsurprisingly, "just the way it is".

1. Quantity: State only what is necessarily as much as needed. No more, no less.
2. Quality: State what you are convinced of. Do not lie.
3. Relevance: Speak what has direct relevance to the present concerns.
4. Manner: Talk without ambiguity.

Now, all of us commit sins, and we have fallen from the grace given to those who keep the Four Commandments. As exemplified in "10 reasons why the Pope Is A Molester", we can clearly see that equalling Pres. Bush to Hitler is socially unacceptable, but that was what the article has intended, not the speaker, however, whether or not X's original post be locked may depend on if X has directly implied the conformity to the performative sentence i.e. to the mob-cheering article; therefore the practical solution would have been for the Topic Title to be changed to for instance, "What an article!" etc., or if we consider the general nature of this public board aimed to provide discussions mainly on whistles and rec***ers, to not raise the topic at all.

Well, we all make mistakes.
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Post by Jack »

Quote @ Tak_the_whistler
Mind you, I'm not here to criticise Sarah, but I'm going to make some points; Suppose similar case was caused by X.

X introduced to Chiff and Fipple a performative sentence of defining President Bush as Fascist. Now, just because X's provocative speech act excludes declarations (allowed only to higher authorities i.e.e.g. King Dale), commissives (unless you're asking for a date), and directives (Need answers?), it does not necesarrily seperate X from his/her responsibility of having displayed the other two speech act, representatives ("I think Bush is nice and all"), and expressives ("I'm just being emotional"). The former may have been what X have chosen with a view to "see if the masses would be aroused" as suggested by few. If this indeed is X's intention, then it follows that S has failed to fulfill the felicity conditions of the pragmatic presupposition which juxtaposes Cooperative Principle. This brings us to *assume* that X may have went wide off the mark of Cooperative Principle proposed by H.P.Grice, but so have and do and will we, as well. Anyway, What is a CP? briefly put, it's a rule to be kept if one is to have a healthy conversation with another. It consists of four elements. Good many number of know-it-alls failed to realise this because it was, unsurprisingly, "just the way it is".

1. Quantity: State only what is necessarily as much as needed. No more, no less.
2. Quality: State what you are convinced of. Do not lie.
3. Relevance: Speak what has direct relevance to the present concerns.
4. Manner: Talk without ambiguity.

Now, all of us commit sins, and we have fallen from the grace given to those who keep the Four Commandments. As exemplified in "10 reasons why the Pope Is A Molester", we can clearly see that equalling Pres. Bush to Hitler is socially unacceptable, but that was what the article has intended, not the speaker, however, whether or not X's original post be locked may depend on if X has directly implied the conformity to the performative sentence i.e. to the mob-cheering article; therefore the practical solution would have been for the Topic Title to be changed to for instance, "What an article!" etc., or if we consider the general nature of this public board aimed to provide discussions mainly on whistles and rec***ers, to not raise the topic at all.

Well, we all make mistakes.
What?
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Tak_the_whistler
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Post by Tak_the_whistler »

Just for fun....to show that we need to be careful of the topic we choose...;~)
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Post by TelegramSam »

I think one thing we need to keep in mind is that this is a MESSAGE BOARD, not a country. It's not truly a public realm and the US constitution's free speech amendment doesn't really apply. Ultimately, this is Dale's toy and he can do what he wants with it. If he wants to lock every thread that uses the world "purple" he can, and there's really nothing anyone can say about it. If he wants to lock threads he thinks are inflammitory, that's his business too. This message board and the use of it are a matter of PRIVELAGE, not RIGHT. He could pull the plug on the whole thing tomorrow if he cared to, and I think we'd all do well to keep that in mind.
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Post by Rando7 »

Cranberry wrote:Sara shouldn't have had her post locked, no matter what she called the President. Free speech is free speech. But I do think the line should be drawn when you seriously threaten another person. Like, if I said I was going to sho....well, nevermind.

If I want to say that President Bush is a a Fascist Nazi, I will. XYZ percent of people would probably disagree with me and tell me why they disagree with me, but why can't I be allowed to say that, if it's my opinion?

Becoming the Thought Police is very dangerous. Tell me WHY I'm wrong, tell me WHY you disagree with me, tell me WHY I'm a fool in your eyes, but don't tell me I can't say that, and don't lock my post.
Dale has no responsibility to provide a soapbox for anyone, including you and I. Freedom of speech refers to restricting the government from interfering in speech (although they do anyway sometimes), not to message boards.

Linking to a website depicting George Bush as Hitler was offensive to many incuding myself and, I guess, Dale. Since this is his board he locked the thread. I suspect the same result would occur if someone linked to sites devoted to hating gays, blacks, Jews, etc.

The analogy has been made many times comparing a message board to someone's living room, and I think it's a good one. When you're in someone's home, a guest should use a certain amount of tact based on one's position as a guest. At the same time the host should try to accomodate his guest. At some point though if the host gets upset enough he has every right to ask you to change the subject or leave altogether, ultimately it's his house or message board.
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Post by Dale »

Cranberry wrote:Sara shouldn't have had her post locked, no matter what she called the President. Free speech is free speech. But I do think the line should be drawn when you seriously threaten another person. Like, if I said I was going to sho....well, nevermind.

If I want to say that President Bush is a a Fascist Nazi, I will. XYZ percent of people would probably disagree with me and tell me why they disagree with me, but why can't I be allowed to say that, if it's my opinion?

Becoming the Thought Police is very dangerous. Tell me WHY I'm wrong, tell me WHY you disagree with me, tell me WHY I'm a fool in your eyes, but don't tell me I can't say that, and don't lock my post.
That's fair. It might have been better to leave it up and let the good times roll. Truthfully, if someone had called someone I ADMIRE a fascist, I probably would have let it go to avoid the appearance of censorship of views I don't appreciate. But, I really thought that, because people know how I feel about the President, I might get a pass on this.

Anyway, Cranberry, you make a compelling and elegantly simple point.

I've used this analogy before: I see the board as the equivalent of a party at my home. Frankly, you would not be able to exercise free speech in a party in my home. If you insulted my wife or daughters for example, I'd ask you to leave. Now, others have argued that I am too possessive and power-wielding in this regard and to this I must frankly plead innocent. Given the number of posts, I intervene rarely and reluctantly. I would say that out of 10 requests I get from someone to lock or delete a thread, I act on maybe one of those, if that many.

Not to be defensive or anything.

A second analogy regarding the board is that, with all my tongue-in-cheek grandiose humor about "journalism", this is something of a journalistic exercise. I don't want to carry slander and name-calling.


Dale
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Post by Nanohedron »

Tak_the_whistler wrote:Anyway, What is a CP? briefly put, it's a rule to be kept if one is to have a healthy conversation with another. It consists of four elements. Good many number of know-it-alls failed to realise this because it was, unsurprisingly, "just the way it is".

1. Quantity: State only what is necessarily as much as needed. No more, no less.
2. Quality: State what you are convinced of. Do not lie.
3. Relevance: Speak what has direct relevance to the present concerns.
4. Manner: Talk without ambiguity.
Obviously these four principles do not apply to moi. :D
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Post by ScottStewart »

So there was this reel I was trying to learn, and... Rats! I'm in the wrong place again! :o
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Post by Chuck_Clark »

ScottStewart wrote:So there was this reel I was trying to learn, and... Rats! I'm in the wrong place again! :o
Oh, I don't know if I agree with that. My mind is certainly reeling from all of this.
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Post by Nanohedron »

Chuck_Clark wrote:
ScottStewart wrote:So there was this reel I was trying to learn, and... Rats! I'm in the wrong place again! :o
Oh, I don't know if I agree with that. My mind is certainly reeling from all of this.
Didn't Liz Carrol pen a reel called "Just Curious"? :D
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Post by Caj »

Cranberry wrote: If I want to say that President Bush is a a Fascist Nazi, I will. XYZ percent of people would probably disagree with me and tell me why they disagree with me, but why can't I be allowed to say that, if it's my opinion?
Because this is not "saying." It is "posting on someone else's website."

Dale is not violating any free speech rights by enforcing topic rules and etiquette rules on his own message board. And you have no constitutional right to have a newspaper print your letter to the editor, or have someone publish your opinions on his/her blog or message board.

Caj
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Post by jim stone »

If I may try to express a subtle thought, on which
I may not have a complete grasp:

This isn't a good place for political activism
or posts that smack of political activism.
The first political thread we had that went south
began when somebody posted a petition
to George Bush not to nuke Afghanistan, and
requested that we sign it, post it, or whatever.
Using the board deliberately to advance this
or that political agenda seems not to work out,
and it isn't what the board is for.

It's tempting to exploit the board for political
purposes. I might think, 'thousands of people
are reading these posts, I'm an activist for
the Purple Party so I'll get on there and run
down the leader of the Orange Party, say all
sorts of bad things about her, and keep at it.
This will help us win the next election!'
That isn't discussion, there's a feeling of
disengenousness.

People who wish to express a heartfelt negative
view about Bush or whomever
are likely to be better received than people
who are perceived as having a political agenda.

Again, I don't think this message board is a good place for
political activism. When threads go wrong, I think
that's sometimes the problem. Best
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Post by Wombat »

Nanohedron wrote:
Didn't Liz Carrol pen a reel called "Just Curious"? :D
I think that one was 'Just Spurious'. :P
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Post by Tak_the_whistler »

C'mon Scott, finish your sentence!!!!
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Tak_the_whistler
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Post by Tak_the_whistler »

Correction on the wording with appologises,
Tak_the_whistler wrote: Good many number of linguists failed to realise [the existence of CP] because it was, unsurprisingly, "just the way it is".
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