ITM transmission and pub laws.

energy · Post by **energy** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 3:00 pm

Pardon my ignorance, but I've been wondering for quite awhile: what's a punter?

Post by **Nanohedron** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 4:35 pm

A non-musician enjoying the session.

Or at least the punter isn't playing.

spittle · Post by **spittle** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 6:35 pm

As an American who was somewhat recently in England (spring of '01) I can echo that what The Weekenders said as still being correct. My wife and I ventured into any pub that struck our fancy over much of central and SW-England, and we were continually impressed with the atmosphere (and food in a vast majority of cases). The ambience and character are on a whole other level from 'bars' in the US which by in large are bland, dirty, and really not much fun (not too metion the beer's usually bad).

Fortunately, The West Coast of the US has plenty of good brewpubs which have made drinking establishments much more respectable with great beer and a more 'pubby' atmosphere, and you'll even find live music at a few (though sessions are limited strictly to 'Irish Pubs' in my experience).

Bear in mind this trip was before my irtrad obsession, and we didn't stay much later than 10-11 at any place, but if our experience was telling at all - the pub-scene shouldn't suffer to terribly much. Of course I've never been to a pub in Ireland, so I don't by what 'bar' they're being judged

Regards,
- Ryan

fluter_d · Post by **fluter_d** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 9:00 pm

I should probably reiterate now that I'm not in any way opposed to the spirit of these new laws (no pun intended). Susan, I should also point out that, although much ITM takes place in pubs, and musicians may or may not drink, drinking is not an integral part of the process. In fact, if people are playing, they will generally drink less than they would if they were just out for the evening, because it does get more difficult to play (well) over the course of the night, if you're imbibing! The fact that many musicians do drink at all is definitely a lot more connected to the prevalent pub culture which exists in the country in general, than to the fact that music is played in pubs.

Also, I'm not criticizing the laws for their effect on established sessions; those will continue. Rather, it's the removal of one of the few 'performance' venues for people learning the tradition. In Ireland, probably uniquely, playing ITM is often not the cool thing to do, especially for teenagers (again, I mention Clare as an exception to this, at least from my vantage point), and it is (at least in my experience) important for people who have talent and interest to see why they're bothering to go to lessons and learn tunes. And, in Ireland, the main outlet for IT musicians is the pubs. It's not ideal, but that's the way it is.

fluter_d · Post by **fluter_d** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 9:11 pm

energy wrote:Pardon my ignorance, but I've been wondering for quite awhile: what's a punter?

Well, I'm not entirely sure of the exact definition, but in Ireland it's used to describe an onlooker who is connected to whatever the issue being discussed is. So, people who go to pubs are 'punters' in the context of pub-related issues; people who go to the races in the context of betting or race outcomes; and voters in a particular constituency would be 'punters' in a discussion about a particular candidate or issue. It's much beloved of the Irish media. If I find anything more informative, I'll let you know!
Deirdre

Ok, have googled; the Compact Oxford English Dictionary says:

punter

• noun 1. informal a person who gambles or places a bet. 2 Brit. informal a customer or client.

My previous guesses weren't too bad, all in all (maybe...

)

Roger O'Keeffe · Post by **Roger O'Keeffe** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 10:32 am

There was a thread on the definition of a "punter" on Mudcat recently. It has become quite popular as a muso's (q.v.) term for a non-muso, as evidenced by the fact that I got leads to a bewildering number of threads when I did a search there a moment ago.

It also has the particular meaning of a prostitute's client, and can also be used to refer to members of the broader public as opposed to a group of performers or "in" group of any kind - for example a member of the electorate as opposed to politicians. Maybe there's some sort of an explanation there.

djm · Post by **djm** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 2:41 pm

My understanding of the term "punter" is that it comes from boating. A punt, you may know, is a small, flat-bottomed boat that is often poled instead of oared or paddled. The reference is to someone who is not a "real" boater, or not a true oarsman of full stroke, so in any field, the term punter is now used to infer someone who is not truly or fully involved, not "in the know", a watcher instead of a full participant. Something along those lines ...

You also see the term in American football, where a short kick, not a "real" kick is called a punt; not a full shot or effort.

A lady who grew up in England in the 1950-60s tells me the English pub phenomenon is entirely artificial, something fabricated in the 60s. Prior to that time, she tells me public houses were the dirtiest, darkest holes filled with some of the worst scum you were ever likely to meet. Part of cleaning up London, besides the air and water, was cleaning up the pubs. They advertised this new creation as a place where people could bring their families for a meal and a companionable drink. It was no longer a "gin house". The English populace bought into the myth, and, surprise! so did the tourists, an unintended but welcome development. That's just what I'm told, mind you.

djm

Tyghress · Post by **Tyghress** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:09 pm

Interesting. . .two weeks ago we had a bit of a change in legislation here in CT that may change the face of our sessions permanently. CT outlawed smoking in places where food is served because of healthcare concerns for the people who work in that environment.

The musicians were pretty much delighted. But the bar (which is actually part of the restaurant and therefore falls under restaurant legal matters) was empty. Really empty. Maybe 10 people when usually there were 40. Soon there will be a ban on smoking in all bars, not just those that serve food. I can't imagine City Steam sponsoring a session if the people don't come to hear the music.

djm · Post by **djm** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:36 pm

We've had a complete ban on smoking in all restaurants for a few years, and bars for a bit less than that. Actually, it was the restaurants that took the worst hit at first, especially if there was a smoking restaurant within driving distance. Now you would be hard-pressed to find anyplace that allows smoking here. It takes a few months for the clientelle to turn over, but it does, and the smokers (like me) learn to smoke outside before going in.

My big concern is that they are now looking to ban smoking in all outdoor public spaces, which means smokers can't even go out to the sidewalk or parking lot. Some places go so far as to dictate that you can't smoke in your own car. That's pushing it a bit.

djm

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:21 pm

Smoking is to go from all Irish pubs from January 1st next year.

djm · Post by **djm** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 7:02 pm

Peter, I've never been, but I'm told that most Irish pubs are filled with smoke. Is it still that bad? What is the feeling amongst Irish pub-goers in general about no smoking? I'm sure the non-smokers are relieved, but are they now the majority there? Do you think there will be the same amount of ignoring this new law the way that some places ignore the age restrictions?

Thx,

djm

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 10:44 am

Personally, I'm very impressed that the irish government actually went ahead with this anti-smoking law. I just *can't* imagine irish pubs (in Ireland) without smokers. So many people smoke in Ireland (and Europe) and many, many musicians do. I can't wait to see what happens it big irish cities and towns in january!

lixnaw · Post by **lixnaw** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 1:51 pm

Azalin wrote:Personally, I'm very impressed that the irish government actually went ahead with this anti-smoking law. I just *can't* imagine irish pubs (in Ireland) without smokers. So many people smoke in Ireland (and Europe) and many, many musicians do. I can't wait to see what happens it big irish cities and towns in january!

they could also do this for one or two pubs who could volunteer, in every district to start with.

The Weekenders · Post by **The Weekenders** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:44 pm

Well, there is a shock period after the non-smoking laws go into effect. Then, for a while, some bars allow it and just "wait" for somebody to complain. After a while, people just go outside. The smart thing is to make the outside place comfortable and non-annoying to the neighbors.

We have gone thru this in California. Some of our international readers might be surprised to learn that smoking has been banned at outdoor events as well, like Oakland Athletics baseball games.

One beach in SoCal just announced they are going to ban smoking there too. Guess they're tired of butts in the sand...

I was surprised when I visited Connecticut a few years back and people were still smoking in restaurants. I have never been a smoker, except maybe a cigar once or twice a year because hey, I just go nuts and try something different. Then my mouth feels like a toxic waste factory for a day and I forget all about it till the next time.

That said, I am sympathetic to people, especially my parents generation, who have witnessed a complete 180 on smoking. From socially and legally acceptable to the opposite, with people looking like pariahs, out on doorsteps a coupla times a day in various office building etc. And from a civil liberties standpoint, banning smoking outside just seems damn weird to me.

Yet again, tobacco, though just a plant, has been associated with so much human misery since Columbus. A morbidly fascinating history involving slavery, environmental catastrophe, disease and big-time capitalism....Devil's Weed, one might say.

Post by **Nanohedron** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:50 pm

The Weekenders wrote:...Devil's Weed, one might say.

So it has been called. I believe it was Mark Twain who also dubbed it "the bewitching vegetable".