The real poll: religion

[Mouse]

In the USA the people volunteering in nursing
homes are usually Christians. No accident,
they're doing in their way what Jesus did.

They aren't Anglicans then......?



- Stephen

[burnsbyrne]

In the USA the people volunteering in nursing
homes are usually Christians. No accident,
they're doing in their way what Jesus did.

Jim, Don't you think this is because the vast majority of people living in the USA are Christians? It stands to reason that most of anybody doing anything would be Christians.
Mike

[Roger O'Keeffe]

Remarkably, only this weekend I asked myself this very question but shied away from raising it.

You really would need to subdivide "Christian" so as to identify possible correlation between whistle and especially uilleann-pipe-playing and the more punitive versions of Christianity that are big into things like self-mortification and flagellism (flageolet: now is there a connnection?). Even within "Catholic" there's a world of difference between 1950s Irish Catholicism (that's where I'm comin' from, baby, though admittedly mitigated by Jesuit intellectual rigour) and the cotton-wool wishy-washy stuff they teach (if that's not too strong a word) nowadays - in spite of the efforts of the sad figure of JP II trying to drag us back into preconciliar authoritarianism.

As for my present status, the lovely phrase "Christadelphian agnosticism" which I first heard in my early twenties, encapsulates it neatly enough for me. It's probably closer to JC's teachings than a lot of what is preached in his name.

[pthouron]

Yes, needs more Agnostic. People aren't Agnostic because we don't care. It's because we don't know. We don't feel strongly any particular way.


Also, why are so many Agnostics I know former Catholics?

Because of all religions, Catholicism is the most alienating?

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

I study up on religion a great deal, but don't subscribe to one in particular. Maybe you'd just lose out on Pascal's Wager anyway (it's better to believe in God, just in case - but what if God wants a heaven full of doubters, or Presbyterians, or atheists even?).
Anthropomorphic principles are interesting to me too. Are we here for a reason, was the universe designed for us? But what is there for us to do, then? Man's ultimate achievement could be grey goo nanotechnology, or Von Neumann machines - creations that would slowly disassemble the universe. Where does that leave our conceptions of ethics and morals?
And how come the Principia Discordia has a FnordFind function? Fnord is a term from the Illuminatis! books. Which were supposedly written as a joke...at least, that's what Robert Anton Wilson said in an interview once. Before they were written Philip K Dick wrote a story called "War With the Fnools," too. Hmmm.

[Marko]

So if you believe that God doesn't exist, but you
don't pretend to know it, you're an atheist.
The agnostic has no opinion. Best

i see agnosticism as an intermediate step, a theist may become agnostic on the way to athiesm, or visa versa.
I was raised catholic, and I had about 4 years where i'd considered myself agnostic (in college, funnily enough), then i came out as an athiest.
it's not particularly easy to do, it takes a sort of leap of faith
it often leads to stupid questions like "do right and wrong, or good and evil have any real meaning?", etc.
i respect anyone whos put some thought into their choice of spiritual path

[Walden]

Jim and I have had a long dialog about this teaching.

I am of the opinion that some element of "self cherishing I" is necessary for survival in the world, and that much violence is done in efforts to permanently slay the ego sense.

However, there is something that changes fundamentally in the process of enlightenment, and the role of the small ego does become utterly transformed in the process. But it is not, and cannot be, permanently slain.

Best wishes,
Jerry

Christianity also teaches self-denial.

And He said to them all, If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. (St.Luke9:23)

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (Rom.8:12-13)

[Jerry Freeman]

The matter of self denial or dissolution of the ego sense is something of a razor's edge, in my opinion.

There must remain a sense of "I and mine" for experience and life to continue, even for the enlightened. The idea of utterly and forever slaying the small ego is, I believe, too extreme, and efforts to that effect can be damaging both to the personality of an individual and to the spiritual goal itself.

For one thing, the idea, "I will (or must) utterly and forever banish the sense of I and mine" is itself fundamentally an ego attachment that must be released in its time just as other ego attachments must be released, each in its own appropriate time.

The evolutionary process that does take place is one where the small ego changes its behavior in service to a higher order. But there will always be pleasure and pain, gain and loss, joy and sorrow, all of which function through the agency of the small ego. To attempt to eliminate the pairs of opposites, even in the interest of enlightenment, is to seek non-existence and death.

The force that propels the transformation of the small ego from a troublesome, binding influence to a part of a spiritual personality acting in the service of a higher order of existence must, in my opinion, be a positive one, not a negative one.

In Christian terminology, it is the incoming Spirit or the presence of God in a person's experience that allows the softening and letting go of habitual ego attachment. In Eastern terms, it is the experience of samadhi or unbounded transcendental consciousness, with its inherent property of limitless peace.

Of course, there will always be a role for self discipline and attention to whatever inner work must be done, which often (or perhaps always) involves wrestling with matters of ego. However, in my opinion, that work gains its power and efficacy in the context of a larger spiritual experience. Preoccupation with the idea that the ego must be utterly and permanently slain in the quest for liberation, enlightenment or the grace of God is, I believe, a misunderstanding and an unfortunate waste of life.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[burnsbyrne]

So if you believe that God doesn't exist, but you
don't pretend to know it, you're an atheist.
The agnostic has no opinion. Best

i see agnosticism as an intermediate step, a theist may become agnostic on the way to athiesm, or visa versa.
I was raised catholic, and I had about 4 years where i'd considered myself agnostic (in college, funnily enough), then i came out as an athiest.
it's not particularly easy to do, it takes a sort of leap of faith
it often leads to stupid questions like "do right and wrong, or good and evil have any real meaning?", etc.
i respect anyone whos put some thought into their choice of spiritual path

An atheist, like a believer, has to make a choice: to believe or to disbelieve. In this characteristic they are completely different from agnosticism which does not make a choice to believe or not to believe but simply says, "I don't know and I don't believe or disbelieve." For this reason I don't see agnosticism on a continuum from belief to atheism.
Mike

[Ridseard]

There must remain a sense of "I and mine" for experience and life to continue, even for the enlightened.

Indeed, the Western concept of the "ego" is such that, without it, consciousness is inconceivable. Maybe there is a difference between Eastern and Western concepts of "ego," since in Eastern thought it is apparently an entity which may be extinguished without destroying consciousness. This possibility is explored in C. G. Jung's essay "Eastern and Western Thought."

[Jerry Freeman]

Maybe there is a difference between Eastern and Western concepts of "ego," since in Eastern thought it is apparently an entity which may be extinguished without destroying consciousness.

In the Srimat Bhagavatam, Krishna (who can be taken as representative of universal consciousness) says, "Taking recourse to My eightfold nature (prakriti), I create again and again."

The eight prikritis are the five elements (or the five senses, from the subjective side), mind (manas), intellect (budhi) and ego (ahamkara) as the eighth.

If Krishna does not exist without the element ahamkara, or the sense of I and mine, I can't imagine how it would be possible for a human to exist without it. Or, if it is possible, I can't see why it need be considered necessary for enlightenment, since Krishna, who has an ego, is enlightenment incarnate.

This, incidentally (or not) parallels the teaching that Jesus Christ was both God and man. I believe it's one of those profound, universal paradoxes that cannot be gotten 'round.

If you read the Ramayana, you see behaviors on the part of Rama that are obviously driven by the sense of I and mine. However, if you read the Yoga Vasishta, it's made clear that Rama became enlightened at the age of 15, long before the events depicted in the Ramayana.

I believe there's confusion over the difference between transcending ego in meditation or contemplative prayer, and maintaining an enlightened consciousness, where the eight aspects of the relative self coexist with the ongoing experience of the underlying transcendental field. One does, categorically, have to transcend ego to advance spiritually, no matter what tradition you reference. However, transcending ego is different from annihilating ego.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[Sunnywindo]

What's a Discordian?

A session after the piano accordeon player turns up with three bodhran playing mates.

I like that. Actually first thought of "Discordian" as a group of beginning musicans... like beginning band. Much to my surprise that it is the name of an actual religious belief. Learn something new everyday here. Also liked the bit about "Whislam"... even though I don't plan on ever worshiping my whistles.

This has been an interesting topic to read through, and I'm tempted to comment on some things, but am about out of time today. Would like to thank all those who are sharing though, as it's interesting to note and learn a bit about the great variety of beliefs out there, some of which I have never even heard of prior to this thread. And I voted... Christian. More specifically I am LDS... The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (more commonly known as Mormon). Some folks in the world argue that Mormons aren't Christians... which never made much sense in my mind as Christ and His teachings are central to my religious beliefs. Some people through history have believed that Mormons have horns... that never made sense to me either. Oh well. Free country (thank goodness for that) and folks can believe what they will. (Which goes with another part of my beliefs... "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dicates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where or what they may.")

In other words... if you all suddenly wanted to start worshipping whistles, that's fine by me, just please don't expect me to agree with and join you.

Sara

[Celtoid]

I keep a Shiva Nataraja to remind me that the eternal dance of birth and death, creation and destruction in the cosmos is just a wee bit bigger than we are. It puts things in perspective for me. Plus i like that Shiva is dancing on the back of ignorance.

[cowtime]

Christian here- born Methodist, raised Independent Baptist, as an adult- Episcopalian.

For me, my faith is the most important thing in my life.

[desert_whistler]

An atheist, like a believer, has to make a choice: to believe or to disbelieve.

Actually, that's pretty astute of you and Marko to recognize that. When I point that out to my athiest friends, they get quite ticked But it's true: It takes a leap of faith to fall off the agnostic fence.

I also heartily agree with Sunnywindo. Freedom of religion is absolutely key: You should be free to worship (or not) as you see fit without being hassled.

My .02.

Cheers!