Square bore whistles

Easily_Deluded_Fool · Post by **Easily_Deluded_Fool** » Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:03 pm

I used the search thingy!

I know it's been mentioned, but I can't find it!

What difference does the cross sectional shape of the bore make?

I want to build a square bore whistle.
So, I ask myself; "Self! What's stopping you? "

" I think it's been discussed before, but where is it? "

Has anyone else built a square bore flute/whistle please,
and what - if any - difference did the shape make?

Why?

Aha! If I were to make it from wheat or corn,
I would be able to say " I can't tell you until next week, 'cos it's a cereal!!!!!"

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:05 pm

They wont work for some reason, but I forget which reason.

Lark did a square whistle with pictures not that very long ago. I bet if you search only his posts, you can find it.

TelegramSam · Post by **TelegramSam** » Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:06 pm

Yea, look for Lark's Squistle.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:24 pm

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=11383

tansy · Post by **tansy** » Sat Oct 04, 2003 4:00 pm

i think it could be done and sound very good. it would have to be designed by someone who had the knowledge of such things. i built a square bore uilleann chanter(by craige fischer design) and like it more and more as i play it. it is a bit quiter than my other chanters but is very well behaved and in tune. it is round on the outside and you wouldn't think square unless you looked up the end. i used thick enough wood and then hand planed it round

i was thinking of making just the square tube for a whistle and fitting an existing, proven head on it.
pipe organs sometimes have square tubes, bass recorders(sorry)i believe do also.
it's all in the design.
thoughts from the dark side, tansy

Daniel_Bingamon · Post by **Daniel_Bingamon** » Sat Oct 04, 2003 5:45 pm

To convert a square bore to the approximate round bore diameter,
take the width of square and multiply by 1.12838

To convert round diameter to equivalent square width, multiply diameter by 0.88623

It will work fine, you can obtain square brass tubing from www.specialshapes.com

Post by **Nanohedron** » Sat Oct 04, 2003 5:49 pm

Square bore?...ah. I thought that this was about whistles to suit the unimaginative conformist dullard.

Easily_Deluded_Fool · Post by **Easily_Deluded_Fool** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 1:31 am

I just knew you guys would know the answers.

Thanks.

JhV · Post by **JhV** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 4:22 am

wouldnt this hurt the fingers?

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 5:47 am

JhV wrote:wouldnt this hurt the fingers?

Nah, you'd be surprised what sorts of instruments people have managed to make (and play) without damaging themselves. A square-tubed whistle is pretty mild compared to a rankett, for instance, as far as hand requirements go.

I have seen pictures of square-bore recorders, and have heard that they play quite well. I've never had a chance to try one, though.

--James

RonKiley · Post by **RonKiley** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 9:24 am

It is true that many pipe organs have square bores but primarily the lower bass notes. I don't see why a square bore shouldn't work as long as the area is correct.

Ron

Thomas-Hastay · Post by **Thomas-Hastay** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 12:35 pm

The Paetzold Square Recorder is a good example of a square bore and as Daniel B. pointed out, square bore designs can be easily calculated. There are certain "drawbacks" that must be considered in square bore design though.

A square bore woodwind will still use only a cylindrical internal air column in the low pressure of the first register. The "corners" are ignored by the air column and the cubic volume there is dead/unused space. In the overblown registers the square bore runs into problems. The higher pressure of the air column in the overblown modes pushes out into the "unused" corners, increases the "used" cubic area and results in a very flat scale.

This flat second scale can be compensated for in the same way that Recorders compensate, by the addition of a dorsal thumbhole that can pe "pinched" open to sharpen the entire scale. The 3rd and 4th registers would be pretty much useless though. Don't let this discourage you, Recorders only have a 1 1/2 octave "usable range".

For some design references you can search "Paetzold Recorders" and the "illustrations" section of....

http://www.organstops.org/

tansy · Post by **tansy** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 1:15 pm

thomas, i was wandering if removing (gouging out) some areas around certain tone holes could improve second octave tunings? this is done on the chanter i made.
also what if you made it tapered- large at mouth piece becomeing smaller toward the bell note end?

tansy

Thomas-Hastay · Post by **Thomas-Hastay** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 2:07 pm

Tansy

"Undercuting" toneholes WILL help with the phase-shift flattening effect in the upper registers. It helps the air column "find" the toneholes better and improves response in the upper registers by allowing the air to "follow" the inner slope up to the tonehole opening, instead of passing a small inner opening(weak tone). This is a physical/aerodynamic property of fluids/gasses called <b>adhesion</b>. You will sharpen each individual note by doing this unless you "average" the diameters of the toneholes in your design.

Using a conical decreasing bore of the correct angle will help to match/tune the 1st and 2nd registers and correct "phase-shift" just like undercutting toneholes. Take some percentage measurements from any Recorder for reference. A combination of conical bore, undercut toneholes and a dorsal thumbhole will correct almost all of the "phase-shift flattening effect" over 2 octaves. Conical bores do limit the range to 2 octaves though.

No design is perfect, and other factors such as a tuned cavity above the voicing hole,reduced thickness at the toneholes and a deep voicing hole(for pitch stability) will also improve acoustics. There are endless possibilities for the designer. Did I answer your questions?

Thomas Hastay.

Jetboy · Post by **Jetboy** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 3:26 am

S'bin done before. I once saw some on display in a pub somewhere and was mildly interested.

Are you thinking of a square whistle or a round whistle with a square bore?

As a fledgeling manufacturer, I have often thought about trying one. I can't see why a square bore would make too much difference to the tone. It would take all the ball -ache out of drilling a long straigt hole through a piece of wood too.

Keep us informed as to how you get on.

Jetboy

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