The way I've been learning tunes...

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 11:05 am

I've noticed a real pattern.

I use sheet music for the pitch, and learn how long the notes are held by ear from a recording, or just because I know the song already. This is the rule rather than the exception. In fact, there isn't an exception. Everything I've learned on whistle has been this way.

I've tried learning the duration of the notes from sheet music and while I know in theory what each symbol stands for, in practicality, I just can't get through it. I've also tried to learn pitch by ear, from hearing a song and picking it out on whistle, and it's hopeless. I've been trying to do this since Februrary, and I've gotten nowhere.

I'm not really happy with this, I wish I could learn soley by sheet music (yeah, I know, it's not traditional, but I don't care), but is learning this way detrimental in the long run in any way I can't see?

Post by **Nanohedron** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 12:16 pm

I'm just wondering why you're unhappy with this pattern as it apparently works for you...I assume you intend to play tunes w/o notation in front of you in the end, right?

In any case, just keep at it. Time and bullheaded effort should be the ticket. Notation is often frustrating for me, too, but that's because I prefer to ignore it if I can, and so my reading skills suffer through lack of practice.

I don't think that learning solely by notation is necessarily a detriment, depending on what music you're after.

TXwhistle · Post by **TXwhistle** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 12:24 pm

I am entirely new at the whistle, but a long-time music reader. While my budget has accommodated a few cheap whistles, it has been less forgiving when it comes to buying CDs. I have been learning all my tunes off the internet, sort of the same way you have. I find the notation, learn the tune using the sheet music, then adapt it to the music clip that is usually included with the notation. (I've mostly been at Brother Steve's page, Virtual Whistle, and Wandering Whistler.) I print out the notation so I can take it around with me.

I know so many musicians who don't read a bit of music, and I've read a few posts on this board that indicate a preference for learning by ear, but my past experience listening to Irish music has been without the knowledge of ornamentation. When I found Brother Steve's page, I was like "OH!" It would have taken me forever to listen to a tune and learn it without knowing about cuts and taps and the like. I would have tried to fit them in as notes and then would never have figured out the rhythm, time signature, etc. Now armed with that extra bit of knowledge, I can listen to the clips first and have an idea of what I need to do to play it. I hope that eventually, I will be able to play more by ear and insert ornamentation where needed.

I've tried learning the duration of the notes from sheet music and while I know in theory what each symbol stands for, in practicality, I just can't get through it.

IrTrad music, in my humble opinion and limited experience, uses some unusual time signatures and rhythms. I have also had trouble with it after playing so many years in 4/4 time. The only thing that has worked for me is basically what you're already doing. Learn the pitch, then listen like crazy and adapt the playing. If you truly want to learn to read music, I would suggest going to your local music store and buying a beginning theory book. Good luck and I will send positive thoughts your way as I practice!

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 12:25 pm

respond @ Nanohedron

Well, that's how I learn the tune, after I've learned the pitch from paper and the time from sound, I don't need the sheet music or to hear it played, I've "got" it.

It just bothers me sometimes that when I look at sheet music of a tune I've never heard, I generally can't play it, or if I do, it's PAINFULLY slow as I sit and pick out which note is longer, which note is shorter, and by how much, and what time signature it's in. I know which note is which, that's easy, it's just how long they last that trips me up, so to speak.

Like, example, I Won't Be A Nun, I've never heard that tune (I don't think) but when I look at the sheet music, I can't play it as it's supposed to be, I'd need to hear a recording a few times and have the sheet music to "get" it.

TonyHiggins · Post by **TonyHiggins** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 12:27 pm

The more you practice reading music, the easier and more natural it will become. However, it won't tell you what traditional music sounds like. For that, you need to listen to a lot of music by people who do. Listen to different performers play the same tune and you'll realize something else as well- there is a wide variation of interpetation available.

If you really know how the music sounds, yes, you can learn a tune from print and play it authentically. If you have print for a tune you don't have a recording for and it's tough figuring out the counts, count out loud while you tap each note until you hear the rhythm of the measure. Do some arithmetic and figure out how to divide the notes into the correct number of beats. (This is my least favorite way of learning a tune, but, it works.)
Tony

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 12:29 pm

Quote @ TXwhistle

IrTrad music, in my humble opinion and limited experience, uses some unusual time signatures and rhythms. I have also had trouble with it after playing so many years in 4/4 time. The only thing that has worked for me is basically what you're already doing. Learn the pitch, then listen like crazy and adapt the playing. If you truly want to learn to read music, I would suggest going to your local music store and buying a beginning theory book. Good luck and I will send positive thoughts your way as I practice!

You know, I can read music. I can read the pitch (how high or low, i.e., what fingers to put down), but not the beat (how long it lasts). For that I need to hear it (and having a computer with a screwy sound doesn't help). I played clarinet for a while in school, and when I look back, I have no idea how I survived that.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 12:34 pm

Quote @ TonyHiggins

If you really know how the music sounds, yes, you can learn a tune from print and play it authentically. If you have print for a tune you don't have a recording for and it's tough figuring out the counts, count out loud while you tap each note until you hear the rhythm of the measure. Do some arithmetic and figure out how to divide the notes into the correct number of beats. (This is my least favorite way of learning a tune, but, it works.)

I hate that way, too. My problem with that is that I can't play and count at the same time and anything mathmatical in the slightest is very hard for me. I've tried metronomes, too. They quickly become annoying because I can't listen to the metronome and play at the same time.

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 12:41 pm

Hi, Cranberry.

You might want to pick up a book on sight singing and ear training. One that was recommended to me has that name, Fundamentals of Sight Singing and Ear Training, by Arnold Fish and Norman Lloyd. I have the book, though I haven't used it much. If I get a chance to pursue my music reading, I believe it will be very useful.

Any book designed to help with learning to read music will have a lot of simple exercises for learning to dicipher rhythmic notation, as well as pitch notation.

Another suggestion is something I learned from my brief time singing in a choir.

I can often pick out a tune if it's not in an odd mode or something, by trying to figure out the root note and the starting note. I can usually tell by the sound of the melody if it's a major or minor key. From there, I try to figure out what's the "home" note, usually the note the tune comes "home" to at the end. Then I compare the home note to the starting note and try to figure out what interval it is. Does it start on the home note, or something higher than the home note?

If it starts on the next note up the scale from the home note, I can tell pretty easily.

If it starts a minor third up from the home note, the interval will sound like the first two tones of "Greensleeves."

If it starts a major third up from the home note, the interval will sound like the first two tones of a 1351531 arpeggio.

If it starts a fourth up from the home note, the interval will sound like the first two tones of "Here Comes the Bride."

If it starts a fifth up from the home note, the interval will sound like the first two tones of "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star."

If it starts a sixth up from the home note, the interval will sound like the first two tones of the "NBC" signature triad.

If I can figure out the first home note and the starting note of a tune I have in my head, I can usually work the tune out on a whistle pretty easily from there.

I'm sure others can add more to this, too.

Best wishes,
Jerry

Post by **Nanohedron** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 12:47 pm

It sounds as if what you're going for here is greater self-discipline, and I think that's a good thing. Go for it, but I don't think that doing what frees you up musically in the meantime will counteract your reading efforts. In other words, I suggest that you keep having fun at what works for now, too. But I probably didn't need to point this out, did I?

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 12:51 pm

That's ok, Nanohedron (WHY have I memorized how to spell that?), I love you anyway.

FWIW, I have the book, Learn To Read Music by Howard Shanet, which I've read twice, mabey I should read it again. If I can find it. It was written in the 50s and is so old its cover is missing.

BluegrassBoy · Post by **BluegrassBoy** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 1:18 pm

Hey TXWhistler and all you whistlers out there with no cash! ( Like Me! )..... Of course we all want hundreds of IrTrad CDs to listen and learn from, but none of us have the flow $$$

Solution= EMusic.com. Online music subscription service that costs ten bucks a month. They have like a TON of IrTrad. And you can dl as much as you want. ENTIRE ALBUMS! And it's LEGAL! Ten bucks a month is not bad.. They've also got kick butt classical and jazz section, just all sorts of stuff. Check it out! BluegrassBoy!

Celtoid · Post by **Celtoid** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 5:38 am

I'm pretty much stuck on using a combination of sheet music and CD's to learn tunes. Sometimes all I have is the sheet music and I'll just play it through a few times until the tune pops out at me and then I see if I like it or not. If I can't get a feel for the tune from the sheet music I just move on to something more interesting to me. Since I learned without a teacher, I'm naturally not a genius at reading music, but I do have a better feel for it than a few years ago. You can kind of humm/lilt a tune by reading the sheet music even though that is a poor substitute for hearing it played. I play some tunes that I've never heard anyone play (from sheet music books) and hope that I have read them correctly, and since the tune sounds wonderful to me, I figure I must have it down.

ITM is really a social music that transcends sheet music, and I understand the pitfalls of relying on that medium. I would like to begin a stinky beginners' session in my area (not in a public place) and try to have others like me work together.

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 5:58 am

Celtoid wrote:I would like to begin a stinky beginners' session in my area (not in a public place) and try to have others like me work together.

Hey!

Celtoid · Post by **Celtoid** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 6:11 am

Are you a stinky beginner Jerry?

Do you think a newspaper ad would attract the attention of three or four others and maybe we could arrange to get together? (in locations where stinky beginners would feel more "comfortable" to make the kinds of mistakes that we are wont to do)

I'm willing to begin working on this and if you are interested, would be more than honored to have you along.

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 6:22 am

Celtiod,

I've left you a PM.

Best wishes,
Jerry