Threaded Tenons

Whistlin'Dixie · Post by **Whistlin'Dixie** » Sat Sep 13, 2003 8:04 am

If one were to replace corked tenons with thread, how would one go about it?

I acquired a Hamilton flute a while back with corked tenons that I guess have flattened out such that the original owner covered them with plumbers tape. It's not the best fit.

I haven't had the nerve to unwrap the tape yet,, in order to inspect the cork.

Rather than ship the flute to Hammy for a redo, can I just wind thread around the corked tenons? Dental floss? I thought I remembered seeing this topic some time ago, but I'm too pressed for time to search around for it................

Thanks to all,,,, Mary

lesl · Post by **lesl** » Sat Sep 13, 2003 9:04 am

Here's the link. WoodieL just had a big discussion on this.

http://www.flutes.fsbusiness.co.uk/tenon.html

skh · Post by **skh** » Sat Sep 13, 2003 9:15 am

And I'd remove the cork and completely replace it with thread.

Sonja

whamlyn · Post by **whamlyn** » Sat Sep 13, 2003 11:26 am

I would replace the cork pesonally, based mostly on the logic that Hammy knows a lot more about this stuff than most of us and he chooses to use cork. Most music supply store, such as those that cater to band instruments, have small sheets of cork that you can cut to size for the tenons on woodwind instruments. A friend of mine does this every so often for her flute (also a Hamilton) and it works quite well. There might have to be a little sanding of the cork to get it to fit just right but otherwise it isn't a very difficult repair.

Best,
Wes

mat · Post by **mat** » Sat Sep 13, 2003 12:34 pm

Before you give up on the old cork try this little trick a flute maker showed me. Apply a little moisture (lick it!) and run a small flame around it (ie. cigarette lighter). This can sometimes swell the cork just enough to give a good fit again.

Good luck

MacEachain · Post by **MacEachain** » Sat Sep 13, 2003 12:41 pm

Hi,
this link is from Phil Bleazey's website, it deals with replacing both thread wrapped and cork tenons

http://mysite.freeserve.com/flutecare

Cheers, Mac

Post by **Nanohedron** » Sat Sep 13, 2003 12:47 pm

mat wrote:Before you give up on the old cork try this little trick a flute maker showed me. Apply a little moisture (lick it!) and run a small flame around it (ie. cigarette lighter). This can sometimes swell the cork just enough to give a good fit again.

Good luck

Cool.

sturob · Post by **sturob** » Sat Sep 13, 2003 12:59 pm

whamlyn wrote:I would replace the cork pesonally, based mostly on the logic that Hammy knows a lot more about this stuff than most of us and he chooses to use cork.

I'm glad Wes said this. I abhor threaded tenons, and actually sent my R&R away (when it needed something else) to have the tenons corked. And Olwell corks his tenons too . . . so following this logic that the makers have some idea what they're doing. . .

I actually think it is all opinion, though, and if you like thread, then thread you shall have. I prefer cork for a couple of reasons. One is that when you oil, the oil doesn't mess with the cork. I don't think the cork minds, and might actually like, being oiled. Thread hates oil and gets all greasy and nasty. Second, I feel like I have to adjust threaded tenons every 5 minutes. The thread compresses rather quickly, and it's not like it bounces back like cork.

I think if you grease the cork with good cork grease, it lasts a long, long time. My current primary flute, which I've had for nearly a year, has nice tight joints, just as firm and stable as when I got the flute a year ago.

Stuart

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Sat Sep 13, 2003 2:31 pm

I would have agreed with you several months ago, Stuart, but my new baroque (like most early flutes) has thread and it works wonderfully. My Hammy has cork, and I replaced it when it ripped, with cork. I think flutes made to take cork work better with it, those made for thread, not; it has to do with the thickness of the tenon, I think, and how well the thread was wound in the first place.
As for oil messing up the thread.. hmm.. the cork grease I use is half oil, half bee's wax. Not sure how the same oil would mess up the thread. On the other hand, I think oil is what helped de-glue the cork on my Hammy's tenon in the first place..
For the Hamilton in question, though, I'd replace the cork; if you can't do it yourself, any clarinet/woodwind repair person in your area can for a few bucks. No need to send it back to Hammy.
Gordon

sturob · Post by **sturob** » Sat Sep 13, 2003 4:03 pm

I guess I didn't consider that the tenons might have been made differently for cork vs. thread joints. As always, Gordon, I bow to thine experience.

As for oil messing up the thread . . . I suppose I need to admit that I'm a Slatherer when it comes to oiling keyless flutes. I have two keyless flutes that are threaded, and when I oil, since I'm lazy, the threading soaks it up. It's all about me, really, and not the thread per se.

The best thread I've used is embroidery thread. I just went to a fabric store and bought some nice bright blue stuff, and it works fine. For thread.

Is there any real hazard to the practice of putting teflon tape over the joints? I know I've done it. The pic over on the Flute lichen thread of my R&R shows it with teflon-wrapped tenons. I learned the practice when I was a youngster playing highland pipes. We'd get the hemp (thread) joints to just a hair loose, and then wrap the hemp with teflon tape. It lasted a long time.

Well, for me, it lasted until I oiled the drones, and then . . . blech.

Stuart

Whistlin'Dixie · Post by **Whistlin'Dixie** » Sat Sep 13, 2003 4:20 pm

Thanks, y'all, for the words of wisdom.

I guess I thought there was something wrong with having the tape over cork, but I may just replace it for the time being, as some of you seem to have done it with no ill effects...

Happy Weekend!!

Mary

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Sun Sep 14, 2003 6:59 am

I've replaced a dead cork with thread in my main flute, just a few weeks ago, using the instructions from Clive Catterall's site, which have already been posted above. It's easy to do and works great, easy to redo if you mess up. The only disadvantage of this kind of threaded tenon is that it's sticky (tacky). The kind of grease used doesn't dry. It's much safer to do thread than cork, if you're doing it yourself.

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Sun Sep 14, 2003 7:31 am

Oh, I don't know if my tenon idea is based on experience, Stuart; I just tried to thread my blackwood Hamilton when the cork ripped (though I didn't do the thorough job that Glauber did, following Clive's instructions), and I didn't like the way it either fit or felt, or held the parts together. The boxwood traverso, on the other hand, with threaded tenons fits extremely well and the flute, assembled, feels solid and strong. In addition, it has been as easy to maintain as cork has been for the other flutes.
And so it made me wonder about tenon construction in general; since a maker like Hamilton prefers cork, he created the flute with an unbelievably thin tenon (easier to do with blackwood, anyway, I suppose), then supported the tenon tip with a silver band for strength, and the tenon seems custom-made for cork. The much thicker boxwood tenon of the one-key was clearly made with thread in mind. Not that cork couldn't work, I'd guess, but the flute was designed the way the original was designed, and that was for thread. In both cases, with the appropriate cork or thread in place, the flutes feel secure when assembled, and are easy to maintain.
As for teflon tape, I hear the danger is two-fold; one, due to it's slippery abilities, a too-tight tenon might be engaged when it shouldn't be, and two, unlike cork or thread, it doesn't allow for the tenon to swell naturally beneath it and therefore might damage the tenon in this way. But my experience with it is limited; I couldn't get it to stay on, and after a few tries, I stopped trying to use it.
Gordon

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Sun Sep 14, 2003 8:41 am

Yes, urgent declarations from some flutesmythes that
T-tape will split the flute and void the warranty.

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Sun Sep 14, 2003 2:55 pm

One of the problems with teflon tape is that it will trap moisture under it, leading to rot. It's fine as a temporary or emergency solution.

My flute is made by Eamonn Cotter, and it was made for cork, but in this case the thread worked fine. I had to do one tenon, but did both anyway because i didn't want to have to carry 2 kinds of grease (thread and cork). The larger tenon took 6 wrappings of sewing thread, but the smaller one (foot joint) took only 2! I wasn't happy with that, i'd rather have more than 2 wrappings, but still, both work fine. The fit is less tight than with cork (but i think the original cork tenons were too tight anyway). I guess i could make it tighter without endangering the flute, but it fits well and feels solid, and the grease makes it air and moisture tight. In fact, the emergency fix for a threaded tenon that goes loose is to add more grease. Then later you can add more thread to make it firmer.

The way explained in Clive's site is to wrap, then apply grease, then wrap some more, more grease, etc, always covering each layer of thread with a layer of grease. Stop when you reach the desired fit. He recommends cheap sewing thread and that's what i used. Other people have used dental floss. I think it doesn't matter much, because the sewing thread will just suck in the grease and the whole thing will be waterproof anyway.

As in all of these things, your mileage may vary.

g