How much is the whistle and how much is the player?

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chas
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Post by chas »

Wombat wrote: On the other hand, if they aren't really that good then again we don't have a disagreement because I'm sure, if you came to think that, you'd change your mind. I have Burke and Sindt whistles I like better than whistles 3 times as expensive. But IMO, they are better whistles, quite independently of matters of price, which is how you feel about your Generation. They're better whistles, not just better value.
Good point -- musical instruments are very nonlinear in their prices, and also value is very subjective and difficult to measure. At the same time, if a musician is looking for that last bit of je ne sais quoi, he's often willing to pay double or triple for it.
Wombat wrote:In these cases, they often find some comfort in craftsmen whistles. Practicing is hard enough, so one doesn't need to make all of his music a masochistic experience.

Btw, I insist on "craftsmen" whistles rather than "high-end" with all its marketing connotations. Yamaha (for instance) makes high-end, middle-range, students instruments as wel as cheapos. They're industrial, they need a range covering every niche.
Yeah, somehow the images of Glenn Schultz or Paul Busman filing down blades by hand just leave me a little warmer and fuzzier than the images of injection-molding machines. Smaller breweries in the US are now calling themselves "craft breweries" since Samuel Adams et al. have been calling themselves microbreweries.
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Royce
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Post by Royce »

NorCalMusician wrote:
brewerpaul wrote:Look at what Mary Bergin and others have done with the humble Gen D.quote]

I agree that a great player (pro entertainer) can do great things, even with relatively inferior instruments. I have to wonder though....

Do they REALY use off the shelf whistles?

I use NASCAR racing as my example. They drive a lot of cars that have names that are the same as showroom vehicles that are available, Thunderbird or whatever. I dare you to find one of those high performance cars in the showroom though.

I am sure that the companies that provide their instruments to these high profile advertisers make sure that the instrument provided is better than the rest and that those people do not spend their time sorting through cases of them to find just the right one!
Cue the Black Helicopters....I know, it's all about Cheney and Haliburton...

Generation has been making whistles for generations--out of the same molds. They've been cranking these out essentially as cheap toys from day one and Generation doesn't care a rat's rectum If James Galway plays one or not, because they've *never* marketed them as any sort of musical instrument, just an entertaining novelty that kids, tourists, and dabbling housewives buy by the tens of thousands every year while half-drunk and wearing a "Kiss me I'm Irish" button.

Just go to any music shop and they'll have a cardboard rack of Generations. Pick up a couple and blow them a bit and if you think one is better than the other buy that one. The truth is, most of the characteristics being pissed and moaned about here relative to Generation in particular are exactly those that make it responsive to good Irish Traditional technique. While flogging it and beating it with cuts and rolls and bends and literally driving it through a tune, hammering and molding the output tone as you like it, you produce the true whistle sound. It's based on technique applied to an instrument that responds to the technique.

Frankly, the much-touted "fluid" and "effortless" and "smooth" qualities of the "super whistles" retards technique, it does not add anything to it at all. Those qualities being criticized in a Generation et al whistle are the sorts of qualities somebody who neither plays nor understands Irish technique would find difficult or objectionable. The superwhistle's qualities are preferred only relative to the inadequate mastery of technique, thus, has this tonal and performance model been designed to make up for player's inadequate technical execution in "sweetness" while the novice is nakedly meandering through mostly recognizable melodies unmolested by proper embellishment.

The most manoeverable fighter aircraft are inherently unstable, and the more stable they are the less manoeverable they are and the more useless they are in a dogfight. Same goes for whistles.

All the chiff and squeaking and brightness and windiness in the "traditional" whistle, or at least "traditional sounding" whistle, are all components to be exploited in expressing a tune with proper embellishment. You want a cut to snap and chirp. You want all those little spikey transient sounds. And the last thing you really want in a performance whistle is one that *effortlessly* breaks the octave. You want that to be a little more defined a break, a break that comes only when you demand it, not when you're just casually thinking about it and then by that time you're already there.

Most of what I've heard on the mp3 files sound like people coming from recorder or academic flute training trying to tongue their way through Irish melodies on recorders very thinly disquised as tin whistles. What you should be asking yourself is not, "Is this whistle playable, " but "Why can't I fathom the merits of a standard Generation?" Because the bare truth is, there has never been a Generation that was so unplayable that it would ever impede the learning of Irish Traditional music on it in the entire history of the instrument. Let's take that back a few decades and simply say that there were several generations of whistlers who hissed away with complete success on poorly thrown together old Clarks make out of rolled up old tin sheets with a splintery piece of salvaged packing crate lumber jammed in the end.

Nobody on this list should ever presume to suggest that their playing or learning of this music is impaired to any extent or in any manner by some imagined "unplayability" of Generation, the old Clark, or any other whistle. I learned off both whistles like whistlers have been doing for decades and decades and decades. I can go down to the toy store and buy a $1 plastic whistle from Taiwan (and I have) and teach you any thing you need to know about playing Irish music on it, and on top of that if you put it back-to-back with the playing *technique* (or lack thereof) I hear on these sound files, what you're really going to be comparing is the sound of a slightly funky-sounding $1 whistle being used to play real, fully outfitted Traditional Irish music, to a lot of $300 designer whistles sounding like recorders, being played by recorder and classical flute players as if they were recorders or classical flutes, and almost incidentally picking out Irish melodies (inbetween Greensleeves and the theme from Titanic) featuring only occasional cuts and an obligatory roll once or twice in a tune, while essentially just tonguing out the notes as if the player really had no clue what the music was all about and never would.

The exact metaphor would be some self-proclaimed uilleann piper taking up the instrument, then claiming the traditional uilleann pipes were all "unplayable," and then adapting oboe reeds and bores to uilleann fingering, and then playing Irish pipe tunes with baroque ornaments with a tone like an oboe.

(And the real story on that is, uilleann pipes really are all unplayable, but pipers learn to make them play anyway, and that's one of the biggest parts of the craft.)

For the metaphorically challenged and the literally impared: It's not the whistle and it never is, was, or will be. Don't get a better whistle, work and get better fingers. Don't find your fullfillment in spending money on a better whistle than Sean Potts or Paddy Molloney plays, find your fullfillment in playing any whistle you have, as well as, in the same manner as, in the same tradition as, with all the notes and embellishments as, Sean Potts and Paddy Molloney. (Or fill in the idol of the day.)

Spend your 300 bucks a year on lessons from real whistlers, not on more and better vanity whistles.

Royce
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lixnaw
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Post by lixnaw »

lixnaw wrote:both equal, i love my burkes!!
i think it wiil take me very long to be as good a player as michael burke is a whistle maker,(if i ever reach that level!!)
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Post by Ridseard »

Because the bare truth is, there has never been a Generation that was so unplayable that it would ever impede the learning of Irish Traditional music on it in the entire history of the instrument.
:boggle: :-? :boggle: :-? :boggle: :-?
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Wombat
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Post by Wombat »

Ridseard wrote:
Because the bare truth is, there has never been a Generation that was so unplayable that it would ever impede the learning of Irish Traditional music on it in the entire history of the instrument.
:boggle: :-? :boggle: :-? :boggle: :-?
I love a good summary. :lol:
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"You ain't got a thing, if you ain't got cheap tin"

Post by Zubivka »

Because the bare truth is, there has never been a Generation that was so unplayable that it would ever impede the learning of Irish Traditional music on it in the entire history of the instrument. Let's take that back a few decades and simply say that there were several generations of whistlers who hissed away with complete success on poorly thrown together old Clarks make out of rolled up old tin sheets with a splintery piece of salvaged packing crate lumber jammed in the end.
Image

To encompass all, you should add something about Waltons/Soodlums to this assertion, otherwise extremely objective and balanced, of course.
Let me help with another definitive statement: "Those who can tweak a Generation don't know what they loose; they'll never grow up to play great music through a real crap...". You don't need to to quote me on that one--pub-lick domain--but you have to train until you appear to say it profoundly.

Try also "You ain't got a thing, if you ain't got cheap tin".
Smoke yourself to a tumour before, or you won't have that true trad jazz sound.

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Post by corinthia »

My first whistle was an Overton, so when it was stolen, I found it slightly difficult to step down to a Susato or Walton's until I could get another. I know have another Overton (a blue D/C), and if anything of mine was stolen, it would break my heart the most of any of my other possessions.

Learning on the Overton made life SO much easier. If the lowest D had *slightly* too much breath, the pitch did not begin to jump octaves like it would have on a cheap, plastic mouthpiece whistle. The tone was BEAUTIFUL, and it made learning the whistle easier.

After my Overton was stolen, I had little difficulty playing cheaper whistles. By this time, I'd been playing whistle for almost 2 years and was quite familiar with the instrument and breath requirements. I found a nice Walton's C that I could make sound almost as good as any high end whistle.
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Wombat
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Post by Wombat »

Royce wrote:
The most manoeverable fighter aircraft are inherently unstable, and the more stable they are the less manoeverable they are and the more useless they are in a dogfight. Same goes for whistles.



Royce
Lots of bold assertion and 'attitude' in the post from which this quote was taken. Surprisingly little in the way of evidence or argument though. This hint was about all I could find.

Interesting idea. But what makes whistles (and uilleann pipes) different from other instruments? Nobody would ever equate instability with manoeuvreability in saxophones, concertinas or guitars so why whistles and pipes?

A few years ago I was on the verge of taking up pipes. The one bit of advice I got from every good player I asked was to buy only from a very reputable maker. Again and again I heard: there are sets out there so bad you'll never be able to learn on them.
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BillChin
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Post by BillChin »

Wombat wrote: Interesting idea. But what makes whistles (and uilleann pipes) different from other instruments? ...
What makes whistles different is that they are simple instruments that have been made for over 150 years. There are no moving parts. There is no "magic" formula that only expensive whistles can take advantage of. There are tolerances. There are trade offs. There are advantages and disadvantages to certain materials. There is machine made vs. handcrafted. The basic whistle is different than guitars, flutes, and other more complex instruments with more raw materials and/or moving parts. The larger whistles are relatively new so there is more room for error with more raw material involved and a modest 30 years of manufacturing history.

In my opinion, the arguments on both sides are more wrapped up in ego than evidence. Again, I firmly believe there is no right or wrong answer. I've also learned that no one changes their mind during an argument on the Internet.

Have FUN whatever choice you make, whether it be a $7 whistle or a $170 one. Whether it be an hour a day or an hour a month of playing. Have fun and enjoy.
+ Bill
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Post by skh »

Royce,

thanks for elaborating what I was merely hinting at.

Sonja
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Post by jim_mc »

I thought a lot of what Royce said made good sense. Of course, he's assuming that we're all playing IrTrad. If we are, then it's obviously the player and not the whistle. The whole reason whistles became so popular for IrTrad was that they were cheap! I also liked his suggestion that one's money is better spent on a good teacher than on a good whistle.

As far as playing other types of music, if you want to play church music and have a recorder-y sound, why not play a recorder? You'll sure have an easier time with the accidentals. If you're going to play fife tunes, play a fife. And if you're just going to play the whistle casually, as if it were a cheap toy, what's wrong with one that looks like a cheap toy and costs about as much?

I have to disagree, though, with his assertion that there is no Generation (or whatever) so bad as to impede one's learning of the instrument. I've seen some cheapies that were absolutely unplayable, and some others that needed quite a bit of cleaning up before they were any good.

Personally, I can't see spending mad money on whistles when there are so many decent cheap ones and outstanding mid-price ones like Dixon and the Hoover Whitecap. Get the whole set of Gen's and the whole set of Dixons. Unless you're talking about Overtons. Or maybe a nice wooden whistle, a Busman or Grinter. And you need at least one Burke, and a Sindt in C. An A Copeland would be good, too....
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Post by raindog1970 »

chas wrote:Yeah, somehow the images of Glenn Schultz or Paul Busman filing down blades by hand just leave me a little warmer and fuzzier than the images of injection-molding machines.
And don't forget about me downstairs in my workshop turning the handwheels on my tiny lathe and milling machine! :P
OK, so maybe that isn't such a warm and fuzzy image... unless I throw in the bit about my two little chihuahuas keeping an eye on me from their corner of the workshop.
They don't mind my whistle playing as long as I give them a Milk Bone when I take a break from working to play a few tunes on a newly completed whistle... although I'm sure they'd happily chew up my creations if given the chance! :lol:
But in response to original topic of this thread - a good whistle player can make a pretty crappy whistle sound decent, but give them a good quality instrument and they'll sound much better.
On the other hand though, a pretty crappy whistle player isn't going to sound much better with a good quality instrument than with an average quality cheapie. ;)
With the quality of cheapies being so extremely inconsistent, I recommend a mid-range whistle for a beginner, or a cheapie that has been hand picked and/or tweaked by an experienced player/tweaker.
I love to hear a good Generation in the hands of a master player, and I still like to play mine... but my playing takes a quantum leap forward when I pick up one of my high-end whistles.
Perhaps that's a reflection of my inabilities, and perhaps it's proof that high-end whistles are just generally easier to play... either way, there's still no way around having to practice religiously if you really want to be good.
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Jerry Freeman
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Post by Jerry Freeman »

I began playing in December of last year. I own twenty or so whistles, not including the ones I have on inventory for tweaking and resale.

And I have still NEVER purchased a whistle for my own use. (Again, grateful thanks to the kind souls on this board who've been so generous with their hand-me-down, prototype and outright gift whistles.) I continue to feel tempted to buy this or that whistle, but the state of my finances won't allow any expenditure at all that can't be justified in the name of survival.

There are certain things a whistle has to do, or I just won't play it. It needs a strong bell note and second note. Many whistles are fragile on those two notes, and it's true of some of the higher end ones as well as many cheapies. It needs to play the second D cleanly whether or not the top hole is open or closed. It needs a good OXXOOO Cnat. (I'll make an exception for a tweaked Shaw soprano D, which plays a good OXXXXO Cnat). It needs an upper register that doesn't have to be pushed too hard and isn't too harsh. It needs to be reasonably in tune.

I seem to be very sensitive to the timbre of an instrument. I'll put down a whistle that's perfectly OK, but doesn't have a certain strong, focused tone you can not only hear, but even feel in your fingertips.

Then I get my hands on a whistle that just sings, and all I want to do is play it. I think about it when I'm working. I wish I had it with me. I want to learn new tunes on it. I want to learn ornaments I was afraid of before.

There's nothing intellectual about it. I don't think, "This is a higher end whistle, so I want to play it more." I'm not thinking, "This whistle will make me sound better," or "This whistle will make me a better player." I don't care that much about being a better player. I just want to ENJOY MY MUSIC! (Thanks, Lee.)

And you know, the more I enjoy my music, the better my playing gets.

In my case at least, the whistle is very important. Not necessarily the price of the whistle, but definitely the quality of the whistle.

Best wishes,
Jerry
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Post by Wombat »

BillChin wrote:
Wombat wrote: Interesting idea. But what makes whistles (and uilleann pipes) different from other instruments? ...
What makes whistles different is that they are simple instruments that have been made for over 150 years. There are no moving parts. There is no "magic" formula that only expensive whistles can take advantage of. There are tolerances. There are trade offs. There are advantages and disadvantages to certain materials. There is machine made vs. handcrafted. The basic whistle is different than guitars, flutes, and other more complex instruments with more raw materials and/or moving parts. The larger whistles are relatively new so there is more room for error with more raw material involved and a modest 30 years of manufacturing history.

In my opinion, the arguments on both sides are more wrapped up in ego than evidence. Again, I firmly believe there is no right or wrong answer. I've also learned that no one changes their mind during an argument on the Internet.

Have FUN whatever choice you make, whether it be a $7 whistle or a $170 one. Whether it be an hour a day or an hour a month of playing. Have fun and enjoy.
+ Bill
Bill, I certainly agree with your first and last claim. It's the one in the middle that I don't quite grasp.

The last claim requires no comment but, although I agree with your first claim, it actually doesn't help the case Royce was making, for two reasons. Yes whistles are relatively simple intruments. High end whistles begin around $80 (for high D) and end around $300 unless you want something in gold or silver. For instruments with more complex arrays of moving parts, the starting price for high-end is about 20 times that and the end price is in second mortgage territory or worse. So simplicity of design explains why expensive whistles are much cheaper than expensive guitars and cheap whistles are much cheaper than cheap guitars. It doesn't explain why a professional whistle player would use a cheap whistle when a professional guiatrist would never use a cheap guitar. You seem to be suggesting, although I don't think you were intending this, that the extra time and care taken by high-end makers is time wasted.

The second reason why your view doesn't help the case Royce was making was that the fewer-moving-parts theory suggests why cheap whistles are more likely to leave the factory stable than cheap guitars are. That's true and is surely part of the solution to the puzzle we've been hammering away at. But it flies in the face of Royce's contention that it was their very shoddiness, their instability, that made cheap whistles more suitable for ITM than expensive whistles.

What your point does explain is why, every so often, a cheap instrument rolls off the production line with no major construction flaws and therefore why there is such a thing as a good Generation—something nobody here has been denying I think. The probablity of that happening with a simple instrument is reasonable while the probability of it happening with a complicated instrument is very low indeed.

I don't get your point about ego. Do you mean the cheopo advocates are demonstrating a look-ma-no-hands machismo? Are the high-end crowd simply justify their expenses? Or are we all, even those of us who just find the issues here interesting and don't think that there is a close correlation between whistle quality and price, ignoring evidence in order to appear to win an argument? This isn't one of the political threads. Or is it?

:P
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Post by Jerry Freeman »

I say it's time we vote. Or lock the thread. Or something. For gawdsake, someone could get hurt if we let this keep going.
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