Zen Quote for over ornamenting whistle players.

AnnaDMartinez · Post by **AnnaDMartinez** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:05 pm

The friend in Oz who sent me my first whistle told me not to worry about onamentation, it will happen. I'm of the school that if you have to work at it, it's too dang much!

I have an index finger on my right hand that just slips into a roll at times, and that's fine! Maybe I'm just lazy!

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:51 pm

selkie wrote:
"In Zen Guitar the acquisition of technique for its own sake is not the path to musicianship...Technique is what enables us to articulate with efficiency and clarity. But first we must have something to say. Sometimes a player with crude technique has more to say than a player with impeccable technique. Whose song is more uplifting? Acquire the technique you need, and no more. That is the way of Zen Guitar."

I happen to have the Zen Guitar book, and like it, but I honestly think the guitar great Segovia said it much better, and more succinctly, with regards to the accumulation of technique:

"The hands must find a way to play what the heart feels."

Loren

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:50 pm

Ridseard wrote:One problem with including ornamentation in the sheet music is that it only indicates where an ornament may be appropriate; it gives no indication of how it is supposed to sound. In IrTrad, cuts and taps are indicated by grace note symbols, but they are not at all like the grace notes used in classical music. Likewise, a roll is indicated by the turn symbol, but it is not played at all like a turn. The only way to understand how to properly play and fit ornaments into the melody is by listening to how it is done by an accomplished musician. Having them indicated in the sheet music is of very limited value.

Amen.

The other thing that annoys me is people who try to play rolls even when they can't, it just sounds so bad.

LeeMarsh · Post by **LeeMarsh** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:45 pm

Loren, I love Segovia's quote and agree.

I was listening to a couple of my favorite tunes a year or so ago and was thinking they only had a very few ornaments in each tune. Then I ran it through at 70 percent speed using some software. I was suprised to find a lot of ornamentation surfaced. It was then that I realized that irish ornamentation was not aboutl grace notes in the normal or classical sense; but, something much more restrained and quicker. In gracing an quarter note, I had envisioned an 16th grace note. What I heard in the irish ornamentation was more like a 32nd or 64th. As a result the primary note was dominant to the point where you didn't actively hear the grace note. It was just a tonal enhancement to the start and/or end of the dominant note.

I think folks who 'over ornament' usually sound too busy because too many of the grace notes are held too long. Usually, if they are held to the point where you actually here the note; then, it's too long. Many Irish ornaments aren't full grace notes but more like the suggestion of a grace note. For example, if I'm cutting the E, I shouldn't be able to hear an FSharp or Fnatural, but rather and E that is just a little closer to Fnatural. As another example, if I'm sluring from an E to an A, I shouldn't be able to find any note between E and A; but rather, just a steady slide up the frequency.

I also agree, that what ever is added in terms of ornament or style has to be compatible with the heart of the tune. I don't mean the fuzzy emotional connotation of the tune, but rather the heart, the center, the essence of the tune. For example a march should pound, it shouldn't pitty-patter or slide all over the place. A lament might hesitate, or drag, or slur, but it shouldn't skip and bounce.

This is what I've been discovering over and over again. I hope its what Irish traditionist hear, and not just me projecting into the music. Either way, I find listening for tone, and rythmn, and that indefinable essence of each tune is the best way learn to release the same in my playing. Ornamentation is just a projection of what is heard and felt, when my ears and heart are attentive.

Helps me enjoy the music. And I always think it should be about how you ...

TonyHiggins · Post by **TonyHiggins** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 8:37 pm

It was then that I realized that irish ornamentation was not aboutl grace notes in the normal or classical sense; but, something much more restrained and quicker. In gracing an quarter note, I had envisioned an 16th grace note. What I heard in the irish ornamentation was more like a 32nd or 64th. As a result the primary note was dominant to the point where you didn't actively hear the grace note. It was just a tonal enhancement to the start and/or end of the dominant note.

That's what I said! I used the word 'heavy-handed.' This is absolutely true. Lighten up and use the ornaments to 'grace' the melody notes, not add to them. (There are exceptions, of course. Some triplets need to be evenly divided up.) And like Lee also said, get the feel of the tune first and work from there.

To be realistic, when you're starting out, it helps to think of these things mechanically (for me, anyway). We can wax lyrical about how the music should be played, but, for the beginner, you first have to figure out the mechanics. So, if you're going to use grace notes, keep them light and quick.
Tony

Ridseard · Post by **Ridseard** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:47 pm

Azalin wrote:The other thing that annoys me is people who try to play rolls even when they can't, it just sounds so bad.

That's me, but I keep trying.

MurphyStout · Post by **MurphyStout** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:07 pm

susnfx wrote:Unfortunately, I think average players who over-ornament (for whatever reason) would be very surprised to hear others think they ornament too much and thus lose the tune. Those I can think of off the top of my head wouldn't recognize themselves in this category - and therefore wouldn't take any steps to undo what they've gotten in the habit of doing.
Susan

I'm getting paraniod!

susnfx · Post by **susnfx** » Thu Aug 21, 2003 6:37 am

Hmmm....A very good thing about not naming names: everybody I know personally thinks it might be them, and since I had to think about it to respond, I worry I might be doing it - so we all work on letting the tune play itself!

Susan

cj · Post by cj » Thu Aug 21, 2003 6:55 am

Tony H. wrote:

To be realistic, when you're starting out, it helps to think of these things mechanically (for me, anyway). We can wax lyrical about how the music should be played, but, for the beginner, you first have to figure out the mechanics.

I agree and that was what I was trying to say before when I was saying beginner-level tutorials should have some notation of how these things are done, as well as slowed-down versions on the CD. I wasn't suggesting that everything should always be written down. And it IS of value, to me at least, to see it broken down in notation while in the learning/beginning stage. I do realize that there are infinite possibilities for ornamentation and interpretation and that learning by ear is great, but it took seeing it explained in addition to hearing for me to understand some of it.

Fortunately, Brother Steve's Tinwhistle Page does just that, he slows it down, breaks it down with explanation and notation, then shows how it's used in a tune and when it's appropriate (i.e., what type of tune, what beat etc), then plays the tune up to speed. He uses both notation and sound files. He also has a great section on phrasing in jigs, which is just as important (maybe more so) as the ornamentation. It DID help to see it written AND hear it played. Now I can learn tunes by ear and maybe get to the next level. Maybe I can get my rolls right, back to DAH-BLAH-BLAH . . .

burnsbyrne · Post by **burnsbyrne** » Thu Aug 21, 2003 9:41 am

I want to thank Lee for his post (above). My teacher has said all this to me but with different words. Lee's explanation rings true and I can't wait til I get home tonight to see what I can do with it. Thank you, Lee, for helping me to

Enjoy my music

Mike

Post by **Nanohedron** » Thu Aug 21, 2003 9:49 am

Lee's discovery of gracenote duration reminds me of something I read somewhere. Basically: ITM ornamentations exist outside of conventional time.

I love that.

Martin Milner · Post by **Martin Milner** » Thu Aug 21, 2003 10:14 am

TonyHiggins wrote:The common problem I witness with ornamentation and beginners, overdone or not, it the heavy-handedness that ornaments are given. They tend to be as long and loud as the melody notes, so that, while they may be in the right places, they overwhelm the rhythm and the notes on the beats (same thing). Wherever they show up, they should accent the rhythm, not overpower it. If I'm having trouble sorting out the notes on the beats from the notes that are ornaments, the ornaments are too forceful (and maybe too slowly executed). Matt Molloy plays a heckuvalot of ornaments, but he gets away with it because he plays them correctly. Same thing with the really good pipers.
Tony

Tony's spot on for me.

I know HOW to do a roll, but as I'm too lazy to practise I don't have them up to speed, so I leave them out. On the other hand cuts & taps are a piece of cake, so I do them and don't even consider them to be ornaments.

On the fiddle, even a cut takes a deal of forethought, and rolls are an out and out nono for now, so my playing is very crisp and Zen and ornament free!

LeeMarsh · Post by **LeeMarsh** » Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:19 pm

TonyHiggins wrote:
It was then that I realized that irish ornamentation was not aboutl grace notes in the normal or classical sense; but, something much more restrained and quicker. In gracing an quarter note, I had envisioned an 16th grace note. What I heard in the irish ornamentation was more like a 32nd or 64th. As a result the primary note was dominant to the point where you didn't actively hear the grace note. It was just a tonal enhancement to the start and/or end of the dominant note.
That's what I said! I used the word 'heavy-handed.' This is absolutely true. Lighten up and use the ornaments to 'grace' the melody notes, not add to them. (There are exceptions, of course. Some triplets need to be evenly divided up.) And like Lee also said, get the feel of the tune first and work from there.

To be realistic, when you're starting out, it helps to think of these things mechanically (for me, anyway). We can wax lyrical about how the music should be played, but, for the beginner, you first have to figure out the mechanics. So, if you're going to use grace notes, keep them light and quick.
Tony

Tony I read this topic TWICE and missed your post both times :roll: we'll call it a grey moment.

Now that I finally read it, I aggree with you, heavy handed is a good way to refer to the problem inside and out. It reflect the lack of lightness of finger as well as lack of lightness of minstrel's soul or ego.

Okay now if I could just do this as well as I can envision it ...

madguy · Post by **madguy** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 12:23 pm

selkie, this is a great topic, and my thanks to you for starting the thread!

When I read your first post I thought, "Finally, someone who has my same ideas!". Then I read what Ridseard wrote in his first post, and started feeling a wee bit guilty. Well, I read on, and agree with some things that everyone has posted!

"The hands must find a way to play what the heart feels."

Loren

This qoute/post, however, summed it all up for me. Personally, as one who plays solely for his own enjoyment/peace of mind, plus the entertainment of my family and friends, I tend to do whatever comes to my mind, fingers, and heart as I play.

~Larry

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Zen Quote for over ornamenting whistle players.

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