Now here's a debate that will run...........

Jetboy · Post by **Jetboy** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 9:11 am

At great risk of p***ing off a whole lot of Irishmen, why is it that the majority of really good examples of that quintessentially Irish instrument the whistle, (screams of derision from loads of other traditional music buffs who may lay claim to the origins of the whistle) are made either in England or America?. Come on guys 'n gals, prove me wrong.!

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 9:24 am

It's not so odd. The American tradition probably made the most of the mouth organ, though they were imported from Germany. I don't know of any evidence that the Irish whistling tradition was founded on any other than imported instruments, but the Irish certainly gave the world some of the best players on that instrument.

Flyingcursor · Post by **Flyingcursor** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 9:28 am

I think it's because in the US we play real football and the Prime Meridian runs through England.

Martin Milner · Post by **Martin Milner** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 9:37 am

Because reels and fiddles came to Ireland from Scotland, hornpipes from England, and tourists from America.

McHaffie · Post by **McHaffie** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 9:56 am

Martin Milner wrote:Because reels and fiddles came to Ireland from Scotland, hornpipes from England, and tourists from America.

Oh bravo, ...

On my interpretation of the question, I would say that it simply boils down to whether or not you have the desire to make your own variation on a theme. Then whether or not you wish to share it, and finally take into consideration the vast population of the WORLD... I think it's just going to be a stroke of the brush on such a large canvas as to where everyone lands with those desires / tendancies.... and it's also going to have to do with areas that have access to tools and equippment of course, so don't go nailing me on semantics!! Oh boy, I can see it all coming now.. I'm done for!!! Then again, what do I know?

Take care all, and happy whistling!!!
John

The Weekenders · Post by **The Weekenders** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 11:02 am

At the risk of being serious

could this be mercantilism and the purposeful oppression of Ireland from manufacturing their own goods? For the early years anyway..... Better informed folk will say how much metal forging etc beyond pigiron or tin took place in Eire. I don't know.

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 11:15 am

The reinvention of the low whistle, as we understand it on this board, seems to be the result of a chance meeting of Bernard Overton and Finbar Furey. Actually fipple flutes of one kind or another are made and played throughout the world.

The most popular whistle music ever was probably Kwela but, to the best of my knowledge, large numbers of whistles were not produced in South Africa.

Where instruments get made has a lot to do with population size, affluence and continuity of expertise in design. Probably most of the high end whistles made are sold to Americans. I've never seen any figures, but I'd be surprised if a high proportion of the best makers of Uilleann pipes were not Irish.

Post by **Nanohedron** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 2:31 pm

The point is moot. Fipple flutes go back to the stone age, and old examples have been found all over Europe. I'm willing to bet that crane-bone whistles (at least) were known to the ancient inhabitants of Ireland and Britain even before the Celtic invasions. Doubtless Celtic culture would have had knowledge of this instrument, and the Celts were master metalworkers who certainly were able to handle the construction of whistle-type instruments. Old Irish accounts of whistle/flutelike instruments are there for the reading.

I see the English predominance in early modern whistle manufacture merely as a continuance of what had already been in place much, much earlier.

hellbound skunk · Post by **hellbound skunk** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:50 pm

People make whistles (sometimes machines do), people play whistles, people buy whistles. Some of these people live here, some of these people live there, some of these people live everywhere. Some of these people are machines. Some of these machines are people. Some of these people (mostly me) don't care!

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 6:35 pm

Wombat wrote:I've never seen any figures, but I'd be surprised if a high proportion of the best makers of Uilleann pipes were not Irish.

You'd better look into it, you WILL be surprised.

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 1:43 am

Peter Laban wrote:
Wombat wrote:I've never seen any figures, but I'd be surprised if a high proportion of the best makers of Uilleann pipes were not Irish.
You'd better look into it, you WILL be surprised.

Given the rest of my post, I don't quite know why I said that, Peter. I think the reason is that, a few years ago, I was thinking of buying a half set and got so close I actually rang a local maker and we ended up talking all afternoon. His list was closed and after asking about other local makers I decided to wait—some of the reports I heard were truly alarming.

Since I already play a lot of other instruments which demand practice time, I finally got sensible and chose a concertina instead.

I think my impression that there were a lot of Irish makers was based on an internet list I saw then. Of course, nothing on the list told me how good any of them were.

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 1:55 am

Same for piano and Germany.

How come Mozart and Beetloven had to import their Pleyels, Steinways and Yamahas, while they'd export Boehms, Honers and Moltenhaurrors rather than play these indigenous tradizionäl instruments?

alex · Post by **alex** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 6:04 pm

This is what happens when your mom has been a tinsmith in her time...

Most tin in the 18/19th centuries, when the whistle was first being mass-produced, was mined in Cornwall (all those mines are now empty), and so obviously would be refined in Britain before being shipped worldwide, including to the states. Hence, the raw material was mostly British at that time.

That's why the best were first made in Britain. And as American colonies were the new frontier of music, and you know you need good music when the natives are shooting at you for stealing their land, the US developed a good tradition of tin whistle music, esp considering the influx of Irish and Scots musicians from the Isles.

Anyone who walks up to the tinsmiths at <A HREF="http://www.osv.org" target="_blank">Old Sturbridge Village</A>, where my mum works, can find out the same thing about tin.

blackhawk · Post by **blackhawk** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 7:32 pm

I've always thought it was ironic that an American craftsman would take African blackwood or Central American cocobolo, then make a whistle based on a design first manufactured in England, to play Irish music.

Hils · Post by **Hils** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 7:48 pm

One reason I think is that the Irish have always been the underdog. I think they invented the whistle as it was a cheap instrument to make. I don't think it was ever meant, by them, to be manufactured. It was a family thing for gatherings. Of course the Brits, Americans and everyone else who was looking for a way to make money cashed in on it. The Irish being mostly broke couldn't. Just my thoughts on it.

Chiff and Fipple Forums

Now here's a debate that will run...........

Now here's a debate that will run...........

Re: Now here's a debate that will run...........

My 2 cents, or should I say Euro's?