how long before you have 'it'

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 6:23 pm

rama wrote:I didn't want to seem too discouraging so I didn't post 'til now.

I was once told by a mighty player (and teacher) that it would take seven years of playing every day to be able to play with comfort and ease. So let's assume he meant 1 hour of practice each day (minimum). That's 356 x 7 = 2492 days. If you can't play every day then let's break it down to number of hours of practice... So the magic number is:

2492 hours of practice then you'll know if you have "it".

The main problem here is that it takes more total hours of practice (to learn a given physical skill) if you don't do it every day. Ask any flight instructor with some experience how many hours it'll take to earn a given rating (Private, Commercial, ATP, etc.) and the first thing he will say is "Well, that depends on how often you fly." If you fly everyday you might be ready to take your private test in 45 hours, twice a week and it's more likely going to be around 55-65, once a week and you're likely to need 80 hours in the air, take lessons on and off over a couple of years and you may need well over 100.

My experience (20+ years) of teaching Martial Arts, as well as Rock Climbing and Fencing, mirrors this. Consistancy makes a huge difference.

BTW, there was a study done on olympic level athletes some years back, the idea was to determine how many repetitions it takes to "master" a new physical skill, that is to say learn the skill well enough to apply it effectively in real time (competition). Anyone want to take a guess at how many repetitions it takes? Remember, these were world class athletes......

Blackbeer · Post by **Blackbeer** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 7:03 pm

Well your are going to tell us aren`t you Loren? As an old ex-martial arts instructor I can remember the two most difficult concepts to get accross to students were opening the hip so you could throw a kick without hearting yourself and start having some fun and punching from the hip. I could deminstrate these concepts till I was blue in the face but to get someone to understand that a punch starts from the hip, forget it. The students that stuck with it and trained every day were so fun to watch. Because all of a sudden out of the blue it would hit them. And then it was look out kids. I remember my first year as a student the most. Thats how long it took before I could start having fun. Same with flying. I soloed in 6 hours and then I flew every day. Heck it only cost 20 bucks and hour to rent a plane in those days. I found the flute the most frustrating cridder I had ever tackeled. Now I just can`t get enough of it.
Play EVERY day. And the gods will smile upon you.

Tom

rama · Post by **rama** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 7:32 pm

Loren - Very interesting and sensible. So Consistency is key.

To answer your quiz..... Perfection comes on that 2556 repitition.

Am I right? What do I win ? Is it an Olympic Gold medal

? Or just another day of practice?

I'll take another day of practice

.

Blowin' Zen,
rama

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 7:33 pm

Yeah, teaching newbies to punch and (especially) kick with power can be a real challenge. Some people are just wound so tight, and have so little "body sense" that you have to physically exhaust all of the muscles involved in a given movement so that the person "Has" to use the proper body mechanics in order to continue. But we are diverting.....

I'll give folks awile to guess before I reveal the answer, don't want to spoil anyone's fun.

$20 an hour for aircraft rental, I remember those days..... that was probably the wet rate too, eh?

Loren

Blackbeer · Post by **Blackbeer** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 9:25 pm

Yep. And they didn`t care where you went or what you did. My thing was carrier landings out in the San Juans. Boy when I think about it now I should have been arested. I did get a ticket for landing on clouds one day. Going IFR on a VFR day is a no no.

Tom

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 10:38 pm

Something that speeds the
process is a teacher...but such are rare as
hen's teeth around these parts.

Of course I wouldn't take this seven
years stuff as gospel.... Diffrent strokes
for different folks.

I'm so friggin old I don't know if I'll
be able to play long enough to be really good,
but I'm earning money playing flute.
I don't think I'll ever be as good at ITM
as a professional, but that isn't what I do
best. At some point things start coming together
more quickly, I think one improves geometrically.

It goes without saying that being very materialistic
about getting 'it' at anything can lead to
discouragement. Aggressive learning is
good--and one does begin to touch the
other shore with each step one takes
in crossing the stream.
Lucky, aren't we, to have something to
be so passionate about? I'm in my 60s and
I feel like a kid. Best

LeeMarsh · Post by **LeeMarsh** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 10:53 pm

I look at it this way. my goal is to play with out thinking about any of the mechanics, think the tone and out it comes. I use how long it took me to learn to sing that way as a guide. Starte around 4 or 5 years old and was pretty comfortable around 16 or 17. That was singing in choirs, choruses, and around the house about 3-5 times a week for 1 to 2 hours at a time. So I figure if I'm going to learn flute (and whistle) it'll take about 10 years until I can play without thinking about it, just let it flow. Thats my goal. I occasionally fall into brief moments of that after the year and a half I've been learning, but only moments.

As for training, I was taugh that 3 times a week is maintenance, 4-5 times week is growth, but watch out for 7 days a week because you don't give yourself time to rebuild tissue that is stressed. So weeks I practice 3 times, I figure is just maintenance, and 4-5 is growth, which works for me. Now that the last kid has fled the nest, and I have place to practice, it's getting easier to fit the time in, with out having to always accomodate the rest of the family's schedule and space needs.

Just turned 50 so by 57 I should be in good shape and still have a good 20 years to play as I used to be able to sing. (Voice went due to allergies and make my living talking too much).

Nice to hear other folks have simular expectations to my 6 hours a week, 50 weeks a year, puts me between 2500 and 3000. I also agree the path and those you meet along the way is as interesting as the destination.

jqpublick · Post by **jqpublick** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 10:40 am

Hey all;

Hmmmm, martial arts and ITM, two of my favorite things. Perhaps we should write a movie script? Yeah, yeah... so these three killer ITM floutists get pissed off at being called floutists by the Tong gangs who live next door and poke these poor Irish boys in the eyes, until a Mysterious Korean Flutist appears and shows them the way of the Intercepting Key. Mayhem and fast jigs! Or perhaps I'll stop drinking all this cough syrup.

I've heard it said that it takes 28 days to make a habit and 28 days to break one. (This from a smoking cessation pamphlet, I got as far as 20 days.) But how fast does the meat learn? I would think each person's body would set that pace. I know when I was taking martial arts some things took a very long time to learn and others came almost right away. Sooooooooo..... I'm gonna guess 150 times, Loren. How's that?

Mark

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 11:22 am

Yes Mark, it was an ugly scene - everybody was kung-flute fighting, and it was all cought on tape: http://www.zanycartoons.com/XStickDeath.asp

Rama, sorry but you and Mark are both way off on your guesses.

Anyone else?

Loren

FSnockhart · Post by **FSnockhart** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 12:13 pm

Oh that was just too awful.

If you were only learning one thing, like how to blow an A, maybe 150 days would work. But playing the flute involves so many factors -- getting a good embrochure, blowing the right amount, playing all the notes, changing from one note to another, changing from one octave to the next with fluidity, learning the notes of a tune, learning the rhythms of a tune, learning to make the tune sound fluent, trying to get the tempo up to session speed, ornamentation, learning enough tunes to enjoy yourself at a session and not just sit there with the flute on your lap like a statue (or playing tunes you don't know and annoying everyone around you), learning to be flexible enough about the music to be able to drop in or out of a tune at a session if you make a mistake, learning to pick up tunes by ear, learning to listen to other players, learning to blend with other players, eventually (I hope) getting a gut sense of the music and the music theory to be able to play harmony on the fly... and so on. Even just figuring out how to breathe and how hard to blow into the flute has changed for me about 7 times during my learning process -- and every time I switch from one flute to another. (Me and the Grinter, baby, we're workin' it out now. I can get that low C about 3 times a night, if I start with just long tones on the D and then the C#).

To be able to pound out "row row row your boat," maybe 150 days. To be able to play to the standard that I want to get to, I'm thinking well into the 2+ N thousands.

On that 28 days to break a habit, sometimes substituting a new habit for an old habit can help.

FSnockhart · Post by **FSnockhart** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 12:15 pm

Oh Doh, i forgot the question.

When on topic becomes off topic. Next on Oprah.

rama · Post by **rama** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 12:16 pm

Instead of taking up martial arts, I'm thinking of joining the notorious Delrin gang, noted for their adeptness at playing jigs and at self defence - all done with one instrument. No match for the Tong gangs.

brad maloney · Post by **brad maloney** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 12:32 pm

FSnockhart wrote:Oh that was just too awful.

If you were only learning one thing, like how to blow an A, maybe 150 days would work. But playing the flute involves so many factors -- getting a good embrochure, blowing the right amount, playing all the notes, changing from one note to another, changing from one octave to the next with fluidity, learning the notes of a tune, learning the rhythms of a tune, learning to make the tune sound fluent, trying to get the tempo up to session speed, ornamentation, learning enough tunes to enjoy yourself at a session and not just sit there with the flute on your lap like a statue (or playing tunes you don't know and annoying everyone around you), learning to be flexible enough about the music to be able to drop in or out of a tune at a session if you make a mistake, learning to pick up tunes by ear, learning to listen to other players, learning to blend with other players, eventually (I hope) getting a gut sense of the music and the music theory to be able to play harmony on the fly... and so on. Even just figuring out how to breathe and how hard to blow into the flute has changed for me about 7 times during my learning process -- and every time I switch from one flute to another. (Me and the Grinter, baby, we're workin' it out now. I can get that low C about 3 times a night, if I start with just long tones on the D and then the C#).

To be able to pound out "row row row your boat," maybe 150 days. To be able to play to the standard that I want to get to, I'm thinking well into the 2+ N thousands.

On that 28 days to break a habit, sometimes substituting a new habit for an old habit can help.

Some of these problems are unique to flute, others are related to becoming a good musician & others are related to sessions.

But man oh man there's a lot you can look into & there is no bottom to the end of it all.

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 1:48 pm

rama - Be forewarned...we're coming for you.

With Dixons and Seerys and M&Es oh my!

First we go for your legs (knee caps are best), then we play polkas and hornpipes since you can't get away, and then, because we're meciless in our plastic world, we SIGHT READ a reel at what we think is session speed!

Feel the wrath of Delrin Gang!!!!

HA! HA! HA!

rama · Post by **rama** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:27 pm

Jawhawk,

W'sup homie, Delrin homeboy. If I get a Seery, are you all gonna gang up on me and beat me as part of the indocrination? Or tie my down and cover my eyes and make me guess: is it a wooden flute being played or is it a delrin flute. If I give a wrong answer -- whack!

BTW, there was a study done: people who play plastic flutes took longer to progress than people who played the wooden flute; and people who played dixon flutes took the longest, something like 20 years; and people from Kansas who play a dixon flute, well ...

(Just kidding)

rama