Haiku for July 22

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:47 am

Doc Jones wrote:For the record, it was in Great Britain that my brother (the neurosurgeon) spent most of his time and formed the opinions which he shared with me.

Ow! Dear, this ain't Europe

It's a complex realm headed by a Queen, but run by an "Eurosocialist" who's best buddy with a Republican Prez'. They have private trains and state medicare and the best Royal Mail in Europe. Er, next to it.

Sometimes, I wonder how many people can be room-mates in one only head... Is there a Guinness entry for schizophrenia?

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:03 am

claudine wrote:In my understanding, the democratic way to treat criminals is to arrest them and bring them to a court.

I do not know all of the details of this particular case, but strongly believe that inalienable rights are as much the right of one man as they are of another.

I have never understood the logic of those who wish to suspend the legal process for those accused of crimes against humanity. Until they have been tried, who's to say what the individuals are guilty of? It's one matter if someone gets hit in a combat situation (when troops are fighting troops, in the battlefield), but quite another to go hunting down an individual, and refuse him a trial.

Post by **Dale** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:35 am

Walden wrote:
claudine wrote:In my understanding, the democratic way to treat criminals is to arrest them and bring them to a court.

I find myself in the weird position of defending the military.

Seems to me that it is way premature to conclude that the Saddam Spawn were assassinated. I'd think the U.S. would have liked to take 'em alive, since there's a chance they'd know where Dad is hanging out. I dunno.

By the way, if you were Iraqi, would those photos convince YOU that those were the Hussein Boys that were killed?

Post by **Dale** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:41 am

Chuck_Clark wrote:
I pretty much ignored it until today because I'm a basically uncultured boor who avoids anything that even MIGHT be poetry.

This is a song for our Chuck Clark,
trying to avoid poems but, hark!

Finds instead of lines on violets,
diatribes on war and violence.

(wince)

McHaffie · Post by **McHaffie** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 7:00 am

I realize I might get the 'you poor misguided soul' treatment here, but we DID ask for them to surrender BEFORE THEY started shooting and then we leveled the place so to speak. So, in the 'court of law' sense that people have been talking about fair trials and stuff almost makes it sound like they should've been brought back here for a jury trial or something. Well, if that's the case then we did what any american would do if they were fired upon first. And that's what I was talking about before.. all the heinous and horrible things they've done... they would have gotten the death penalty for anyway, and those that don't believe in the death penalty, they would have gotten life in prison, so no matter what... it's still war, and I will back up the military on this one.

There I go getting political when I said I wouldn't and I shouldn't, so I accept the consequences of my thoughts. Let 'er rip.

Take care,
John

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 7:25 am

"We... them..." Passing over the popcorn... "We" won!

It's not a realty show. It's baseball.

Doc Jones · Post by **Doc Jones** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 7:41 am

Zubivka wrote:
Doc Jones wrote: Ow! Dear, this ain't Europe

Close enough darlin'

Jerry Freeman,

You have very much hit the nail on the head with your insights. I routinely use treatment modalities (herbal therapies, diets, etc) which I never heard a lick about in vet school.

But, in defense of the docs. Even if they do know about alternative therapies their hands have been tied by the lawyers.

Because there has been no real research (because of the lack of financial incetive to pay for it) the dr.s can't sit in a witness chair and say "I stopped the conventional treatment and tried the "snake oil" because research shows it's more effective".

I think the moral of the story is to absolutely seek multiple medical opinions and to make sure some of them come from non-traditional practioners (acupuncturists, herbalists, chiropractors, naturopaths etc).

As to the accountants writing the diagnostic protocols; I have had similar experiences.

Once took my wife in to measure serum value to diagnose something. The nice nurse says:

"We're going to pull some blood and do two tests. The first test tells us if there is any of that hormone in your blood. The second one tells us how much there is."

I say " Hmmm, doesn't knowing "how much" there is sort of answer the question of whether there is any?"

She smiles and says "That's just the way we do it".

I smile great big and say "That's not how we'll be doing it today"

Then I had a long chat with the doctor about who was writing her diagnostic protocols and wouldn't it be faster if they just did a "billfold biopsy" so they could remove the money directly from the wallet and avoid all the ouchy needles. :roll:

Doc

pthouron · Post by **pthouron** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 7:53 am

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 8:08 am

Well, this has been Sam's traditional role,
sort of like a greek chorus--general comments
on the human condition, observations on the
futile nature of such discussions, etc.
Place for it too.

As to Saddam's sons, continuing stories
confirm that they were given a good opportunity
to surrender, that they responded by firing
on the troops, wounding three of them.
It's hard to find an issue here that their
human rights were violated.

There are questions being raised about
whether it would have been prudent to
use tear gas or whatever it took to take them
alive. They might have told us where
Saddam is hiding, etc. Maybe. But they
were barricaded inside behind bullet proof
windows. It took terrific firepower over
several hours to stop them.
It's hard to second guess the people
on the ground, and I sure wouldn't have
been for sustaining more casualties in such
an effort.

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 8:22 am

Considering how much credible research has demonstrated the heart protective and anti-inflammatory value of fish oil ...

I would love to see a lipid profile of snake oil. I would be willing to bet there's something good in there.

You're so right about the lawyers, and docs' hands being tied by the lack of adequate (due to no financial incentive) documentation confirming the value of various treatment modalities.

I believe, in the present milleau, we have to look beyond the published research to evaluate what treatments may be of value. Because research is skewed in the way we've discussed, there needs to be a second level of examination to find the effective modalities that have been ignored by the research.

For that, I would consider the experience of clinicians who have treated thousands of patients with a particular modality.

Some of them have written books, like Safe Uses of Cortisone, by William McKinley Jeffries, a respected endocrinologist at Case Western Reserve Medical School in Ohio. His methods have been used successfully by hundreds of physicians over a period of decades, but you'll have to read his book and network with docs who've used the modality to learn about it, since there are no published studies.

There are a lot of things like that, where good, experienced physicians have learned how to use something that gives excellent results for their patients, that isn't taught in medical school or covered in the literature because there's no funding for it.

Another example, incidentally, is hormone replacement therapy.

Virtually all the research has been done using Premarin conjugated equine estrogens and Provera medroxyprogesterone. Neither is anything like a woman's normal hormones.

Premarin is made from pregnant mares' urine (hence the name: PREgnant MAres' urINe). It is 80% estrone, the most carcinogenic of the three major human estrogens, and 20% horse hormones that never would be in a woman's blood if it weren't in a pill. Provera/medroxyprogesterone isn't a hormone at all. It's a hormone-like drug (you can't patent progesterone, so the drug companies have no incentive to sell it).

Physicians who have looked into the situation use natural, "bio-identical" hormones, and in combinations that are much less likely to carry the side effects and risks that Prem/Pro does. They prescribe "bi-est" which is a mixture of estradiol (the dominent human estrogen, much less carcinogenic than estrone) and estriol (which may actually have a cancer protective benefit, rather than risk).

The most recent research suggests that even though the estrogen component of conventional HRT is 80% carcinogenic estrone, the main risk may actually be from the Provera/medroxyprogesterone, which is only in there because you can't patent real progesterone.

Fortunately, real progesterone is so free of risks and side effects, the FDA allows you to buy it without a prescription over the counter in a transdermal cream that works fine. There are books about it (Dr. John Lee is the main writer), and it's easy to use.

The situation with these modalities isn't unlike that which exists with conventional surgery, which relies much more on clinical experience and much less on research to evaluate the effectiveness of various techniques.

Best wishes,
Jerry

claudine · Post by **claudine** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 8:47 am

If they had been put to trial and got the death sentence, that would have been better for us, for society. It would have proved to everybody that we are a civilized society and that we believe in the law and that we respect the law ourselves. How can we keep the faith in our own civilization or how can other nations trust us, if we behave like predators.
What we need is justice, not revenge.
(The word "we" in this context means: the western democratic civilization).

Doc Jones · Post by **Doc Jones** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:36 pm

claudine wrote:If they had been put to trial and got the death sentence, that would have been better for us, for society. It would have proved to everybody that we are a civilized society and that we believe in the law and that we respect the law ourselves. How can we keep the faith in our own civilization or how can other nations trust us, if we behave like predators.
What we need is justice, not revenge.
(The word "we" in this context means: the western democratic civilization).

Claudine,

I think everyone with a brain, and even people who may not have a brain (ie..G.W. Bush) agrees that putting those boys through interrogation and a public trial would have been absolutely the best thing in the world for the U.S. position.

The fact is that we asked them to come out and they started shooting like crazy.

Can you please explain what is "predatory" about returning fire and defending the lives of our troops? :roll:

Doc

Doc Jones · Post by **Doc Jones** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:39 pm

DaleWisely wrote:
Doc Jones wrote:Maybe sick people should just go to their vet.
I have to have a colonoscopy. Can we talk?

Sorry to break it to you Dale, but colonoscopy is a procedure for which it is impossible to overcharge.

Doc

pthouron · Post by **pthouron** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:34 pm

OK, just for the sake of argument... Did it strike anyone that the shooting of the Hussein brood happened just when the State of The Union mess was starting to create some heat back home?
Am I turning into Oliver Stone? Have I watched "Wag The Dog" one time too many???

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:51 pm

pthouron wrote:OK, just for the sake of argument... Did it strike anyone that the shooting of the Hussein brood happened just when the State of The Union mess was starting to create some heat back home?
Am I turning into Oliver Stone? Have I watched "Wag The Dog" one time too many???

I think in this particular case you have. Sure there is a tremendous amount of pressure to come up with results and to pacify Iraq. I think even if they found weapons of mass destruction now, it would not much help the Bush administration's credibility (remember the "45 minutes"?). But if they also can't come up with Saddam Hussein soon, it will be even worse for them. I for one hope that they catch him soon, that they catch him alive, and that they will try him in a real court of law and not some shady tribunal. I will not conceal that I hope that this war has so discredited Bush that he will not be re-elected. But beyond that I have no interest in the standing of America as a power in the world being more harmed than Bush and his posse have already managed to do. Right or wrong, they have managed to piss a large part of the world off, and I am hoping for a period of constructive American involvement in world politics and an American attempt to repair relations with Europe.

And just for the record: I am at least as pissed at European governments (particularly France and Germany) for they way they have treated America. Very stupid, and very bad.