Ciarán Bourke's Whistles

raindog1970 · Post by **raindog1970** » Tue Dec 04, 2001 6:16 am

Does anyone know what kind of whistles the late Ciarán Bourke of The Dubliners played?
I have been unable to find any information on the matter or any photos of him with a whistle.
I'm guessing maybe Overtons because there were not many high-end whistles to choose from in his day, and I'm quite certain that he didn't play Generations... at least not in any of the recordings I have.
Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Wed Dec 05, 2001 3:42 am

Hardly likely they were anything else than Generations (there wasn't anything else). On some of the pics on the records covers you can see the red heads on them.

I said it before, and say it again, hardly any player in Ireland uses anything else than a Generation or the odd Oak. And why would they:-)

Jens_Hoppe · Post by **Jens_Hoppe** » Wed Dec 05, 2001 4:22 am

On 2001-12-05 04:42, Peter Laban wrote:
I said it before, and say it again, hardly any player in Ireland uses anything else than a Generation or the odd Oak. And why would they:-)

Hmmm, I might be "Deputy Generation Defender" (or whatever) on this board, but this - the "and why would they?" - strikes a chord.

In my opinion whistle players - Irish or not - have every reason to play other whistles than Generations or Oaks, simply because there are better instruments out there. So, if I am given the choice between a Sindt and a Generation, I will choose the Sindt, for exactly the same reason I would choose a Generation over a Walton. Why? In both cases the instrument chosen would be the best instrument of the two offered (all IMHO of course).

Peter, I am curious, have you ever tried, say a Sindt or a Burke brass D whistle? If yes, what didn't you like about them?

To (re)state my opinion on these whistles; both of them sound like "real" tinwhistles, having the same kind of tone, feel, volume, weight, etc. - they're just better made and sound better than any "manufactured", cheap tinwhistle. In another thread you mentioned something about expensive whistles not sounding like "real" whistles (tone, volume) and being therefore inappropriate for Irish music. This is an opinion I can agree with (with some reservations perhaps), but it clearly doesn't apply to the whistles mentioned above...

Cheers,
Jens

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Wed Dec 05, 2001 5:07 am

quote]
On 2001-12-05 04:42, Peter Laban wrote:
I said it before, and say it again, hardly any player in Ireland uses anything else than a Generation or the odd Oak. And why would they:-)
[/quote]

Peter, I am curious, have you ever tried, say a Sindt or a Burke brass D whistle? If yes, what didn't you like about them?

I have played a Sindt briefly and I have one on order actually. I am stirring a bit again offcourse, but most very good whistleplayers I know or have known can knock a great tone out of a Generation. So it's all fine that a lot of people who are really not much beyond the beginners stage in my opinion go out to spend a lot of money on very dear instruments while really, they don't need to. Someone from this board in a private mail recently mentioned funny looks were given to people playing 'cheapos' in her area, 'you aren't in without a Burke' sort of thing. That's what I sense in some of this discussion and that's what I am stirring in if you like. The school of thought that says: so and so sounds great so he can't be playing a cheap whistle. Well, I am sure he (or she as the case may be)can and probably is.

I was going to add the following to my post above:

I saw the Dubs perform several times during the 70s, by then it was mostly John Sheehan playing the whistles. From the recordings I often wondered how he got that lovely rounded tone (on say, the Honeymoonreel, the Sweep’s hornpipe etc). At the concerts he had that exact same tomne and he played a brass Gen. Not a bother on him.

I suppose, and we get back to that ‘Generation: are they crap or not discussion’, it’s all in the way you blow into it. Micho Russell used to borrowed a particularly battered C whistle from me for concerts and he blew a lovely tone into it. Last year I played in ‘the band’ at Martin Rochford’s funeral mass, Sean Potts Ronan Browne and myself all three playing whistles, each sounding very different on the same type of instrument. You can knock the instruments but you bring something to it yourself.

raindog1970 · Post by **raindog1970** » Wed Dec 05, 2001 6:33 am

On 2001-12-05 04:42, Peter Laban wrote:
Hardly likely they were anything else than Generations (there wasn't anything else). On some of the pics on the records covers you can see the red heads on them.

I said it before, and say it again, hardly any player in Ireland uses anything else than a Generation or the odd Oak. And why would they:-)

Granted that Ciarán almost certainly did play Generations on some tunes, but try playing along with Dunphy's Hornpipe off the Live in Carre Amsterdam CD with a Generation whistle... it's in the key of E (as are many Dubliners tunes).
Ciarán was still alive when that was recorded, but it still may have been John Sheahan playing that tune... I'm not sure.
Whether it was Ciarán or John, you still can't play along with it on a Generation... so the question remains open.

[ This Message was edited by: raindog1970 on 2001-12-05 07:35 ]

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Wed Dec 05, 2001 7:11 am

A friend of mine is actually supposed to have been there when that was recorded, but I don't think he'll remember.

But seriously, I have undetaken some minor research around the house before making a fool of myself. First: a photograph of the Bourkeman playing what looks like an old battered Clarke. He did play other stuff so.

Secondly: goingthrough old recordings checking for pitch: Willie Clancy 1967 (roughly the same period as the Dubs)played a whistle pitched in E.

There was something available in that pitch so at that time any takers or thought?? willie would certainly not have had any high end of the market instrument in 1967 even if it would have been available.

(I will possibly be able to find out from some of the older local whistleplayers, I'll report back if I get any results)

[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2001-12-05 09:29 ]

Jens_Hoppe · Post by **Jens_Hoppe** » Wed Dec 05, 2001 9:07 am

I have played a Sindt briefly and I have one on order actually.

Good man.

The school of thought that says: so and so sounds great so he can't be playing a cheap whistle.

And of course I agree that "school of thought" is pretty damn silly.

Cheers,
Jens

StevieJ · Post by **StevieJ** » Wed Dec 05, 2001 11:31 am

Jens I have both a Burke brass and a Sindt D but I play a Generation most of the time. Apart from easier tuning and indestructability, I'd be curious to know in what ways you find them better.

Personally I miss the windy edge to the sound and the complexity of tone that I get from a Generation. The Sindt sounds a little dead by comparison - this is especially noticeable comparing a Sindt and Generation Bb.

ErikT · Post by **ErikT** » Wed Dec 05, 2001 11:41 am

I don't really have the knowledge to speak to the true answer, but is it possible that each of them made they're own? Either from scratch or using a piece of tube with a Generation fipple?

Erik

[ This Message was edited by: ErikT on 2001-12-05 12:42 ]

Tyghress · Post by **Tyghress** » Wed Dec 05, 2001 3:05 pm

In response to Bro S's <<Apart from easier tuning and indestructability, I'd be curious to know in what ways you find them better>>

It is far, far easier for me, a beginner, to get a decent sound out of my high-end instrument than it is to get one from my low-cost ones.

The upper register doesn't make the birds scream.

It balances better in groups.

There isn't a buzz on any note.

It is in tune with itself and doesn't need to be tweaked.

My music sounded better and made me feel better about playing and practicing.

I can play in front of someone, and if my hands or breath quaver from nerves, the instrument doesn't do a Jekyll and Hyde on me. . .

I could go on.

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Wed Dec 05, 2001 9:38 pm

Here's the problem with Generations for me: I'd love to have a good generation or three, but.....They're quite scarce in my neck of the woods and I don't much feeling like ordering two dozen just to find one that's good. If their quality control didn't blow I'd be all for 'em.

Steve, Yeah, I'd agree that the bigger Sindts (C, Bb, A) aren't that strong; I mean they're good, but not like the D and Eb Jon makes. Too bad you can't cross finger C nat, that really keeps me from playing mine much.

Loren

RudallRose · Post by **RudallRose** » Wed Dec 05, 2001 9:55 pm

I'll echo Loren's sentiments (that's happening a lot lately!) about the lower Sindt whistles.
I just received a set of 5 for sale and, like a good steward, played them all. The A has great tone, little strong volume, same with the Bb, although I found it slightly better in sound quality than the Copeland Bb that I've got here.
The C is marvelous. Pure and strong. I like how Jon has ridged the blade. The D is marvy too, but that Eb.....my gosh.
I can see why folks are so up on Sindt whistles. As well they should, too!
I've played Generations for years and years (save for the kingwood Abell in D that I've had for many years), but only recently decided to move to something different. Having the opportunity to try them all, I'll say this: Copeland's Bb is best in my opinion. Sindt has by far the best Eb. The best D is a toss between Abell, Sindt and Copeland, with a Burke very close behind.
Overton has the best of the low whistles (F and D) to me, although the Grinter low D that I sold for a client was marvelous, too.
Yet, despite the higher prices, I can't help but love the sound that my favorite whistle player -- Vinnie Kilduff -- gets out of the Oak. Truly incredible.

Brian Lee · Post by **Brian Lee** » Wed Dec 05, 2001 10:32 pm

This is a COOL thread! Given a chance to voice my oppinions as well, I'll have to side with the Generation/Oak camp as well.

I've had some amazing luck with yweaking most of mine, although for some strange reason, I perfer the nickel/blue Gens to the brass/red ones. I can't for the life of me tweak one of those silly red ones well to save my life!

A friend of mine recently bought an Oak C that I tweaked for her, and I must tell you it is a thing of beauty!

I think one of the things that defines what a really "good" and "true" whistle sound is for me anyway, is that I cut my teeth on Chieftains recordings, and Paddy's Generation sound is just so distinct for me that other whistles just don't seem to have that strange complexity of tone that the Gens/Oaks do to my ear.

I've got a Burke brass pro which I love, and have played many many high end whistles too, all with nice but different tones. Apart from the store bought cheapies, my very next favorites must be Mack Hoovers work. Increadable tone. Sweet, direct, and the perfect amount of chiff for my tastes.

Anyway, if times is any measure, I still find myself gravitating towards my Gens/Oak about 90% of the time.

B~

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Thu Dec 06, 2001 1:32 am

Sean Potts is getting an amazing sound
out of his Generation--on the other hand
he says that it was given him 20 some
odd years ago by Mary Bergin, because
it sounded so sweet, and
that these days the head is attached to the
tube by tape. I think I know why Sean
doesn't just run over to the music
store to trade it in on a new one!

Anyone who thinks cheapies can't sound
good or who looks
down their snoot at someone playing
a cheapie at a session, doesn't know
celtic music or whistles, obviously.
But it's a two-way street, I think.
There really is a good reason to
play some of the high end whistles--
they sound absolutely gorgeous.

Innovations in a craft or art are
typically used by a minority at first--
that's the nature of innovations in
a way. Hence it is often the case
with innovations that the best practitioners
aren't using them--at least for a few
decades. It hardly follows that the
innovations aren't an improvement.
Of course, many of the best
practitioners simply may not be particularly
well acquainted with the new thing;
and there is a natural human conservativism
as well--one sees this in sweeping generalizations from a single case, as
in 'I once heard someone play one of
those things and it didn't sound so
good to me, so they're all a bit
of a waste...'

I don't think it myself, but I do
understand why people who know all
the whistles might prefer Generations
to anything else. But it can certainly
go the other way too, and I hope we
will cultivate an open mind--especially
about whistles we don't know well yet.
What matters really is what happens when
you play the whistle for a couple
of months.

That the best whistlers play Generations
isn't a good reason to conclude that
my Copeland nickle D isn't a superior instrument for the sort of music they play. To paraphrase an American novelist, I may
not be Columbus, but that doesn't
mean there is no new world.

[ This Message was edited by: jim stone on 2001-12-06 02:54 ]

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Thu Dec 06, 2001 2:57 am

There really is a good reason to
play some of the high end whistles--
they sound absolutely gorgeous.

Innovations in a craft or art are
typically used by a minority at first--
that's the nature of innovations in
a way. Hence it is often the case
with innovations that the best practitioners
aren't using them--at least for a few
decades. It hardly follows that the
innovations aren't an improvement.
Of course, many of the best
practitioners simply may not be particularly
well acquainted with the new thing;
and there is a natural human conservativism
as well--one sees this in sweeping generalizations from a single case, as
in 'I once heard someone play one of
those things and it didn't sound so
good to me, so they're all a bit
of a waste...'

That the best whistlers play Generations
isn't a good reason to conclude that
my Copeland nickle D isn't a superior instrument for the sort of music they play. To paraphrase an American novelist, I may
not be Columbus, but that doesn't
mean there is no new world.

[ This Message was edited by: jim stone on 2001-12-06 02:54 ]

There is a certain conservatism among traditional players but there is also always a very strong sense of looking for improvement and I can assure you that any of the great whistleplayers would immediately latch on to a development if they thought it would improve their music. People are in general very well informed about what is going on in the world. We get a lot of you people passing through, half the world comes to the Willie week, workshop teachers travel the world round. Still, very few, if any, feel tempted to upgrade. I don't know about you but that tells me something.

There is a new world out there, certainly, butI have the impression a lot of you haven't even started exploring the old one yet.

[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2001-12-06 04:01 ]