O'Riordan Isn't Taking New Orders Right Now

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 2:26 pm

Jayhawk wrote: Bloomfield - I like your friend (even if he/she resides only in your head and you're just trying to disguise your MPD)...

MPD is an old term. The correct term for the condition is DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder). Just thought you'd like to know.

colomon · Post by **colomon** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 2:50 pm

Janice,

Of course a super-fancy whistle will not make you a better player. It's the opposite concern that worries me -- if you're just starting out, a crappy whistle may well keep you from ever properly learning what you're doing.

I'm a case in point: I tried to start whistling four times in the course of my life. The first three times I gave up in frustration because the cheap whistle I had actively fought me -- they didn't respond well, they clogged up with water after two minutes playing, etc, etc. The fourth time I discovered the Chiff & Fipple, checked out the high end reviews, bought a lovely Water Weasel D for $60, and I've never looked back since. The whistle did what I told it to, playing was a joy, and suddenly practising was fun, not a chore.

Now this isn't to say you need an expensive whistle. If you can find a good Clark or a Generation, more power to you. I suspect the O'Brxxxn improved whistles would be an awesome choice for a beginner. And if they weren't so loud, I would unreservedly suggest Susatos. (And frankly, I find it hard to imagine paying $300 for a whistle -- I've toyed with the notion of getting a Thin Weasel, but the ability to buy 3-4 great non-wood whistles for the same price always wins me over completely.)

The point is, if you are going to start the long hours of practice needed to get good, you need a whistle that plays reasonably well. Cost isn't the point, function is. Whistles over the $15 mark get bandied about because they do tend to be more consistently usable than the cheapies -- and because a lot of us have been burned by the cheapies.

janice · Post by **janice** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 3:05 pm

Yes, I understand your point Coloman (I myself played on a Clarke and a Generation for many years before buying a high end whistle). I just think that some of the newer players get the wrong idea from many of the board posts. That is, that they absolutely MUST have the "whistle du jour" to be considered a whistler.

Tyghress · Post by **Tyghress** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 3:34 pm

colomon wrote:I'm with Ridseard on this one. Emile Benoit spent three years pretending to fiddle using two pieces of kindling while singing the tunes. He turned out to be great -- perhaps we should recommend to interested fiddlers that they not be allowed an instrument for years? And of course, actual music lessons would be out of the question -- so many great players learned without, after all.

I wonder if whistle players fifty years ago had these arguments? "What do you mean, you want a new whistle? Random O'Random learned to play on a whistle that had been run over three times! Having to bend it back into shape made him appreciate the music more, and the dents made the tone sweeter! If you can't learn on something like that, you're not fit to play an instrument!"

ROFLMFAO!

In re: your musing whether players 50 years ago had the same arguments, I was just wondering if harmonica players have the same discussions. Its another instrument that is reasonably inexpensive, but with some very 'high-end' makers; used primarily in ethnic/folk/trad music, and identified closely with at least one musical style;diatonic with the option for chromatic (or near chromatic, when talking about a keyed whistle); easy to play, but difficult to master. I'll bet they have very similar discussions that we do.

In re:

Janet's wrote: Not everyone understands the extent that one must practice to improve (not to generalize!). People can learn to play and play well on a cheapie. But that being said, if you've got the disposable income to spend money on a high end whistle, and you have enough self awareness to realize that it will not be the be all and end all, then go ahead and buy a pricey whistle (last time I looked, it was still a free country).

Its uncanny how you described me, and I don't think we've met!

RonKiley · Post by **RonKiley** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 3:52 pm

I learned to play guitar on a $6 Sears Silvertone. After about a year I bought a Fender No Caster about 1954 vintage. It was much easier to play. A few more years and I got a Martin D28 which I still have. It plays infinitely better than the Silvertone. But I played a lot of music on the Silvertone and learned the basics. I have been playing whistle for about 6 or 7 months. I have Generations, Sweetones, WLB, Susato, etc, but no high end whistles. I have noticed that over the last 3 or 4 months my whistles have gotten much better than they were at first. Something has improved their tone and playability. I think it may be practice that has been the tweak that did it.
Ron

nickt · Post by **nickt** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 5:21 pm

janice wrote:At the risk of wading knee deep into it, I think y'all are missing the point....

Bloomfield's friend is correct-I see a lot of people with high end whistles who somehow think they will magically become better players with each addition of a new pricey whistle. I think some newbies get the impression from some of the posts on this board that they must buy an expensive whistle before they can be considered to be a competent whistler.

Frankly Janice, you ARE wading deep into it - it's you who's missing the point. The issue is not about "get a high end or stick with your cheapie" (we've covered this argument God knows how many times over the months), the issue is clear in the very first post from jluckett that started it all: he said he's buying a high-ender, wanted an O'Riordan, discovered Pat's no longer taking orders and wanted to know which whistle sounds most like an O'Riordan. All this stuff about cheapies/high enders is a red herring and off the point (and not helpful to jluckett).

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 5:50 pm

nick, you should be used to discussion getting away a bit from the original post. So don't act like we are dissing jluckett by calling into doubt the merit of a "I need a high-end whistle to keep me playing" attitude.

About Pele and Emile Benoit: I am so happy that they persisted at what they did even though they lacked proper equipment. Their love of the sport or the music transcended the hardware they needed. I like that in a musician: The sense that they are in it for the music. Now, if someone tells me "if it wasn't for my O'Riordian/Rose/Abell/Engraved Copeland, I would have stopped whisteling long ago," I wonder.

jluckett · Post by **jluckett** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 9:43 pm

It's me... The person who started (or restarted, as the case may be) this whole debate. Being rather new at this game, I didn't quite grasp the scope of the issue at hand.

I now know better!

But at this point, I want to put my $0.02 in.

There's no way this side of the Styx river that an expensive whistle is going to make me, or anyone else, a better player. But I heard the O'Riordan played by an acquaintance of mine and absolutely loved the tone of it. I'm learning on a Generation (Thanks, D.!), a Clark and a Walton. And while I've managed to find three whistles that are quite good... (I take that back... two of the three are good. The Clark goes sharp on the high C, no matter how you finger the note.) none of them even comes close to the tonal quality of the O'Riordan.

In addition, when you factor in the waiting time for a "high end" whistle (anywhere from three months to two years), I'll have had enough practice to play it well. At least, that's my theory! If I'm wrong, one of you will get a great deal on a nice whistle!

I don't expect to change anyone's mind here, nor would I want to. We all got into this because we love the sound and the challenge of becoming a good player. (Except for one guy, whose post in another subject said he got into it to impress a girl.

) Play what you like. And if you like what you play, all the better!

Thanks to everyone who has responded thus far! I've gotten some good advice, some laughs, and a couple of headaches.

nickt · Post by **nickt** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 2:33 am

I guess this argument has done the rounds in various threads over the months. What is clear is that there are the two schools: "learn on a cheapie because that's what the greats did", and "if you want a high-ender go and buy one even if you're a rank beginner".

At the end of the day, both are valid and I would suggest whichever suits, do it. I am a better player for having bought a Rose early on, I recall that Peter Laban swore by his faithful Gen through thick and thin. Whatever you like to play, do it. The only thing that I object to is the tendency to inverted snobbery where cheapies are concerned; each to his/her own is my view.

Nick

janice · Post by **janice** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 6:57 am

Nick- I was responding to earlier threads that had already strayed from the topic...something which happens here all the time. This is usually a friendly board and people normally do not get their knickers in a twist about it when threads stray. I thought the POINT was to exchange information in a civilized fashion. Perhaps I was wrong.

BTW, I am aware of many times this issue has been brought up....

StevieJ · Post by **StevieJ** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 7:55 am

Yes, we've had the debate many times, but it's good to dredge it up now and again, if only to remind ourselves that the other side will never see eye to eye with us.

Well, actually, that's not completely true. For instance, my views of the subject have mellowed considerably, so the debate must be having an effect. I can even foresee a day when I might agree with Janice that it's a free country.

For the sake of the dredge, though, I'll make an old point or two and a couple of new ones.

It's a cultural thing. Times move on, but attitudes linger. Compared with earlier decades, at least in Europe, we are awash in money now and can afford lots of expensive toys. For example, when I was young, nobody other than a professional or very serious amateur cycle racer would be seen on the road kitted out as if he were competing in the Tour de France. Nowadays I see lots of aging citizens turned out like Lance Armstrong ambling along the bike path at 15 kph.

In my young days, when nobody had any money to throw around on such luxuries, this would have been seen as highly pretentious and good for an all-round laugh at their expense. This carries over, I think, to other fields, even the humble whistle. When I see someone who can barely play unsheathing a Copeland high D in a session, or even unrolling a toolkit full of high-end whistles (yes, I've seen this happen) I will politely suspend my disbelief and suppress my sniggering. But I'll have a little chuckle about them with my musical mates in private afterwards.

Another old point: Many people seem to want louder whistles. I find the volume of a Generation-type whistle to be right for even quite large sessions, unless the ambient noise is extreme. Just because you can't hear yourself very well doesn't mean others can't. Sorry, but I do not appreciate having what I consider to be my appropriate sound level totally buried by a novice with a Copeland, Water Weasel or Susato.

Chas, do you really mean to say that you are trying to play well to justify the investment, rather than playing well for the sake of music? I can't believe it, but that's what your remarks suggest. If so, I think you've got the cart before the horse, or the tractor in front of the trailer.

The other thing I can't fathom is why so many people claim that cheap whistles are harder to play - almost as if only the greats can make them sound good. In my experience, getting quite extensive now, the opposite is true: I've never tried a handmade whistle that is easier to play than a cheapie, although some are about as easy. A lot of them are more demanding, though. I mean, if you can't make a Walton's sound good, I don't want to hear you playing a Susato.

So I don't get it. Please explain, someone.

As for tonal quality, well, this is purely a matter of preference, and that's another debate we've had a few times. Handmade whistles do offer some benefits over cheap ones, but for my taste, tonal quality is not one of them.

pthouron · Post by **pthouron** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 8:10 am

There is the same argument going among guitar players (must be the same for every instrument, I guess). Some would say don't spend money on a good instrument if you're a beginner, or there was the myth that you had to somehow "pay your dues" learning on a crappy guitar because that's the way Robert Johnson did it...
I think there may be another argument that is being overlooked. I am a decent guitar player, but by no means a virtuoso. But I positively LOVE the instrument. So I paid what some would consider an obscene amount of money to have one made by Linda Manzer (a great luthier in Toronto). I don't make a living from playing, so I coul not justify the expense that way. But in the end, ten years later, I still get all tingly every time I look at my guitar or play it.
Should this kind of pleasure be experienced only by professionals or accomplished players? I don't think so...

Pat Cannady · Post by **Pat Cannady** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 8:23 am

Just my 2 cents:

Beginners will do better than all right with the one-piece Clare D in nickel or brass. The O'Brien improved is slightly better, but either type has all I could possibly need in a D whistle for Irish music.

Two more cents:

I personally do not enjoy a session that is so loud that I can't hear myself playing a Generation-style whistle. Smaller sessions are more musical and I find them more productive because I can HEAR everyone else.

If I walk in a pub and see 20 fiddlers, 5 boxes, 3-4 bodhrans, and more than one guitarist/accompanist, I'm turning around and walking right out.

Hiro Ringo · Post by **Hiro Ringo** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 8:27 am

Completely OT:

I have kept watching Lance Armstrong since 1994 Le Tour de France.

1994 was the last Le Tour de France for Greg Lemmond.

I never imagined Lance nowadays when I saw him withdraw from the race in 1994.

Sorry I was itchy for saying this.

nickt · Post by **nickt** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 8:52 am

janice wrote:Nick- I was responding to earlier threads that had already strayed from the topic...something which happens here all the time. This is usually a friendly board and people normally do not get their knickers in a twist about it when threads stray. I thought the POINT was to exchange information in a civilized fashion. Perhaps I was wrong.

BTW, I am aware of many times this issue has been brought up....

Oh dear, I'm sorry Janice, no offence was intended - I guess I get a bit frustrated sometimes by the "whistle police" (of which you are clearly not a member). You know, the snobs who disapprove of a newbie wanting to spend his/her hard-earned cash on a fancy whistle and suggesting they master a Gen/Waltons/etc first; if they want to spend, well why not is my position. Sorry if I was out of order with my previous post.

StevieJ - some interesting points there. One I was interested in was your comment about a novice producing a bag of high enders at a session. I'm wondering if that's part of the problem - I'm now intermediate level I suppose, and I certainly wouldn't dream of joining a session unless I felt I was advanced (ie a lot better than I am now). Maybe high end whistles should carry a health warning like fag packets: "the sound of this whistle may damage the health of those nearby"