This Board

Mypipes · Post by **Mypipes** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 10:56 am

Dale,
I am a lawyer and cant fathom any plausable liability you would have for hosting the forum. I know you have a disclaimer. That is not to say that someone might sue....yet this possibility exists regardless of the piping forum. You sound irritated about something that I am at a loss to pinpoint, although I dont read all the posts.
I think this is the second or maybe third time I have heard your displeasure with this forum and each time it appears to stem from someones opinions regarding pipers and or makers being miscontrued or mischaracterized.
The forum here is a valuable tool. Should you elimintate it the Pipers will flock to the whistle forum and put a UP on their posts.....your stuck with us one way or another.....let it be known however, that we are very appreciative of the courtesy you extend. Regards

Post by **Dale** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:02 am

Thanks to everyone. Today I had an idea about a way to express a guideline about negative posts. I'm in the middle of my work day--later I'll post it. I think it could help.

Dale

kevin m. · Post by **kevin m.** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:29 am

Hi Dale,
As someone who is about to make the leap into Piping (I'm currently waiting for a practice set) This forum has been totally INVALUABLE to me.
I have found several board members to have been very forthcoming and extremely gracious in giving freely of their time,support,opinions,experience and expertise in what can be a 'minefield' for the beginner- the pipes are a complex,ideosyncratic,not to say expensive instrument- if I muck up buying a £5 whistle I haven't lost out too much- it's a different matter when you are shelling out £850+!
There is more collective piping experience on this board than in any amount of tutor books,videos or c.d ROMs- it would be a crying shame if this superb resource was to go just because of the words/actions of barely a handful of posters.
Just my VERY CONCERNED two pence worth.

I would add that I consider this to be the MOST IMPORTANT post that I have placed on 'Chiff and Fipple',so strongly do I feel about this topic
LONG MAY THE U.P. FORUM CONTINUE!

boyd · Post by **boyd** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:56 am

Kevin
There's a lad from up here in the NE of Scotland who is studying in Newcastle and who is also learning the UP's.....you should get in touch with other.
I'm off home to Ireland just now...drop me a mail/PM to remind me..I have an e-mail/phone no somewhere for him, I think

Boyd

kevin m. · Post by **kevin m.** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 12:23 pm

boyd wrote:Kevin
There's a lad from up here in the NE of Scotland who is studying in Newcastle and who is also learning the UP's.....you should get in touch with other.
I'm off home to Ireland just now...drop me a mail/PM to remind me..I have an e-mail/phone no somewhere for him, I think

Boyd

Cheers Boyd,I'll be in touch!

Now THAT is a perfect example of the type of help and support that this board provides!

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 12:54 pm

Please keep the board open Dale. There's always going to be a handful of abrasive personalities that have no people skills, nor any experience sitting at round table discussion forums where no one is above the other. It's a good experience for everyone to make some mistakes and learn that the board doesn't center around them.

Anyone who has bothered the administrator of the board about stuff that adults should normally know how to cope with, needs to step back and ask themselves if that kind of power play is really worth it. Holding others hostage, just because of a lack maturity, isn't what piping is all about.

I think the best reason to keep the board open is because this is a good experience for all. Pipers especially need this kind of exchange of ideas and information because of the difficulty of playing such a special instrument. I especially like the kind of people on this board who have something good to say. It's my opinion that pipers in general need to lighten up a little, even though piping is serious stuff, and show a little humor. Many do, and I always appreciate that.

It's too bad that a few uilleann pipers could have given Dale such a bad image of the instrument. He's already frightened by the very idea of the things!

brianc · Post by **brianc** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:23 pm

Dale,

If newspapers and their attendant websites were to shut down based on the comments of others not associated with them, then there'd be no newspapers or attendant websites.

I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that you couldn't possbily be held liable merely for providing a service wherein others can provide their own opinions.

That said, you might want to consider a disclaimer that provides the readers with a notice which states that "Chiff and Fipple is not responsible for... blah blah blah, and opinions expressed on this site are not necessarily the opinions of the C&F and its volunteer staff, blah blah blah."

Any legal beagles out there to help with that sort of thing? Pro bono, I'd expect.

Ailin - nice picture. heh heh. "Soytinly!"

Ailin · Post by **Ailin** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 2:29 pm

Thanks Brian! Your pic looks, um......familiar, but good too!

I think the UP board is just a victim of soycumstances! Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.

Just came back from a 1-1/2 hour session on my pipes and am glad to see the board is still here!

Post by **Dale** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 4:06 pm

Ok. So, today it occurred to me that there might be a way to establish a guideline about negative posts that had not occurred before. Controversies about negative posting have occurred on other C&F boards. I have been accused of not liking negative posts. This is untrue. I really do think it is a good service for people to share a range of positive and negative opinions and positive and negative experiences with various products. Here are some examples:

Acceptable post: "I had difficulties with Maker X. He promised delivery in two months and, when I did not receive the product in four months, he did not respond to three emails...(etc.). When I got the product, I felt it was not suitable for me. The doo-hickey key was out of alignment and the walls were too thin, etc."

Perfectly acceptable. It give details. It is not second hand. It is not vague. And, this is critical: it allows a discerning reader to decide for herself whether she would consider these to be things SHE would regard as a problem. She might not be bothered by late shipments. She might like her doo-hickey key out of line. She might like thin walls, etc.

Unacceptable post: "I've heard bad things about Maker X."

It is vague, 2nd hand, and useless to the reader. It might lead people, unnecessarily and unfairly, to avoid Maker X. In the absence of information, people tend to assume the worse.

Unacceptable post: "I've had problems with this maker and I'm not prepared to go into details."

Then, respectfully, don't post. It's unfair. It creates a negative impression which is wholly without support.

Acceptable post: "McFadden's whistles require too much air for my taste, and the materials are a bit too inexpensive."

It's an opinion. It's free speech. It gives the reader some information.

Unacceptable post: "McFadden's whistles are crap."

Ill-mannered, unfounded, unsupported, provocative and useless to the reader.

Does this help?

Dale

tok · Post by **tok** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 4:22 pm

Dale , That is the best thing I have heard since the sound of my alarm clock going off tomarrow morning , when hopfully , this will blow over , and the forum is still extant . On the other hand It seems to me that the sticky issues regarding pipes , and money , and quality are still just as much ongoing , as they were before the forum . Or the internet .
I remember going to a session ,, oh well , they finally had to just bodily through the guy out of the pub ,, lol
tok .

And no , that guy was not me . lol
tok .

snoogie · Post by **snoogie** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 5:09 pm

I'd like to add that I find this board extremely positive and supportive. Yeah occasionally someone makes a disparaging remark, but as has been previously stated we're humans and sometimes exhibit bad judgement.

Dale I think your guidelines are perfect and should be clear to everyone. If someone cant follow the rules, then boot them off...but please dont' close the UP forum.

I'm not yet a piper, but would like to be and the wealth of knowledge the folks on the UP forum have supplied by me just lurking and reading is worth years of following people around and asking annoying questions.

When I first started into the world of Irish music, I started with the whistle and read the Whistle board. But I haven't been over there for months because (IMHO) 90+% of the posts are off topic and seem to me to be much more inflamitory than anything I've ever seen on the UP forum.

I still play whistle, but found nothing more of value on the whistle board. My experience was that any newbie asking a question received an immediate "oh no, not that same old question". Contrast that to the UP forum where I've found everyone to be extremely patient and willing to contribute their experience.

Just my $0.02.
-gary

jqpublick · Post by **jqpublick** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 6:30 pm

Hey Dale; (and everyone else)

I'd hate to see this board shut down. When I first started coming here it was simply because a friend of mine (who plays a Howard Low 'D' she likes to call 'Howard') said this site was really funny and talked about whistles with great fervour and obsession, so I came and read it.

Then I spotted the UP board and I was stunned by how many people there were on this board, and how vast the body of knowledge was, and is, here. I have learned huge amounts of information here, and in fact was directed to the guy who made my pipes from this board. From this board as well I heard about the Chris Langan Weekend which I went to and met my maker. (heh. Maybe I should rephrase that.)

Anyway, without the people here and their aid I would never have gone on to do any of this. Sure, people argue, people are somtimes snotty and unfair, but man, you come and work where I do sometime. This is nothing. I've seen worse on the bus. I can understand that there are fears around being sued, but people should just get a grip. You get mad, take a break, go for a walk, play some pipes or something.

I'd also like to point out that there are several threads about on this forum in which people have asked straight out for open opinions about makers and almost always others have said 'not here, if you want answers about someone specific either email me or send a private post'. I'll just say that without this here board I'd feel like I just lost a huge connection to the music and the people, which is what it's all about, isn't it?

Thanks for everything, Dale,

Mark

Paul · Post by **Paul** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 6:46 pm

I came here after Patrick D'Arcy mentioned C&F on his old message board. (Thanks Patrick!! BTW, we never did get those pesky Chinese marketeers to stop their shenanigans did we? Well, we tried

)> I joined up here later on. It has kind of kept me going while I have been waiting for my set to get finished. After a while I started checking out the Whistle Board and I took out my old whistles which had been pretty much mothballed for years. Because of all of this, I've since started playing whistle again, and I've bought more (whistles) and even ordered a second set of pipes (flat).

I have learned so much here and on the other forums that I can not ever thank Dale and Rich enough for having them available. I think if anyone puts any garbage out here again that everyone should just ignore it or post a link to this thread.

Slán,
Paul

tansy · Post by **tansy** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 7:24 pm

hi dale,
i well remember how i felt when the troubles of the melt down occurred a few weeks ago, and would truely miss all the good folks on this board. it makes the learning of the pipes more possible.and helps the learning curve . i feel i don't always come across the way i mean to, i'm just not a computer type of person, i only have a pc because of the pipes. some of the guys here are a bit grumpy, but its 95% goodness i feel. so i ask you not to shut it down. some times we need reminders, not only here but in all aspects of life, on how we must treat our fellow neighbors.
this brings to mind a sign in a pub i used to frequent, it read,
" BE NICE OR BE GONE ". the was never any trouble there

oh, and thanks for this sight to begin with.

tansy

elbogo · Post by **elbogo** » Sat Jun 14, 2003 1:27 am

Dale, thanks! Those are excellent guidelines!! Not only that, I think it also opens this board up a little more. You are a gentleman and a scholar.