Why is learning by ear preferable?

[skh]

I haven't read this whole thread so I'm not sure if the point I'm about to make is new?my apologies if it isn't. There could only be one reason why playing from music is an inferior way to learn folk music, if it is. It would be inferior if the written music were not an accurate representation of what the piece should sound like. And this is in fact the case.

Yes, but this is the case for any other kind of music as well. Yes, this includes classical music, where what the composer wrote down is only the skeleton of what the musicians on stage (soloists usually by heart, by the way) actually perform.

[Wombat]

I haven't read this whole thread so I'm not sure if the point I'm about to make is new?my apologies if it isn't. There could only be one reason why playing from music is an inferior way to learn folk music, if it is. It would be inferior if the written music were not an accurate representation of what the piece should sound like. And this is in fact the case.

Yes, but this is the case for any other kind of music as well. Yes, this includes classical music, where what the composer wrote down is only the skeleton of what the musicians on stage (soloists usually by heart, by the way) actually perform.

Correct. I probably didn't make my point as clearly as I should have, but it will be clear from the rest of my post that I don't see a problem learning any style from sheet music if one has been taught how to interpret.

[Nanohedron]

I liked skh's analogy of "uploading" to memory from sheet music. As long as that's the case, and one has a sense of what the music's about, what harm? But you can't get a sense of the music without a lot of listening, first.

[LimuHead]

I tell my students, "The more ways you know how to do something, the better off you'll be in the long run." I love to sit down and READ through tunebooks. I have no problem making music out of the markings on the paper. I will even add ornaments on the fly, run tunes together, and change from playing a tune in a major key to playing it in a minor key (just for my own fun.)

I can also play and learn tunes by ear. I have been known to play tunes from memory for HOURS.

Another "Aldonism" my students hear is, "In music, it's not how you get there, but THAT you get there." You can read OR play by ear, but if the resulting notes sound like crap, you've missed the point of music. Music should be (dare I say?) musical! If you can get 'there' by reading music, AND by imitating what you hear, you'll be better off in the long run.

That's my 2/10th's of a dollar's worth. -- Yet another Aldonism (Yes, I know that equals $.20!)

[madfifer9]

This has been a very interesting thread. I've been a musician for a long time, and started out by reading music. Standard school band repertoire stuff. Always always reading first, then listening to instructors. I didn't do much listening to recordings, except for jazz. When I got to college, I sarted playing Classical, Baroque and Renaissance music, and started doing a lot more listening to recordings to learn the styles.

So, when I started playing whistle and Irish flute, I realized very quickly that just reading the music does not work. Luckily I had done some listening, and had an idea of what it should sound like. Since then, I have done even more listening (but still need to do a LOT more).

Have you ever tried learning ornamentation from reading a music book? IT STINKS!! If I can hear the ornamentation, though, I can copy it and learn it no problem. I think I have learned about half of the tunes I know by ear. But I have been known to pull out my session book to look at the first few notes of a tune, because I don't remember how it goes!

Fun thread. I liked reading your previous post, Limuhead, and totally agree with you there.

Linda S.
madfifer9

PS to arythmic: Are you an artilleryman?

[Jens_Hoppe]

I don't play from sheet music, but I "upload" tunes from sheet music into my memory, and I'm not sure people can tell the difference.

Well put. In principle I agree with Azalin and StevieJ that in order to play Irish music properly, you have to know what the music sounds like, but I also agree with your quote above.

In my view, if a person "knows" the music (a deliberately fuzzy term), then using sheet music to "upload" tunes, and applying one's knowledge of the music to those notes works very well. This is a very different from the situation where a complete beginner to Irish music gets a tune book, and attempts to learn to play exclusively from that (trust me, I've been there ).

Jens

[skh]

Well put. In principle I agree with Azalin and StevieJ that in order to play Irish music properly, you have to know what the music sounds like, but I also agree with your quote above.

I think the only point I really want to make is that looking at black dots does not damage ears.

[Lorenzo]

How is improvisation treated in ITM, would I be out-of-bounds to improvise in a session, and why is 'by ear' better than reading the music?

I play in several different bands, and it seems there's at least one person in each band who has to have the sheet music (if just to remind them how each tunes starts). The thing I notice is that the music stand gets in the way. Either some in the audience can't see the face, or if they can, the person playing has no connection with the audience as he/she is pre-occupied reading. I like that occasional direct eye contact, exchange of glances, sometimes answering a hoot with a hoot with other musicians in the group or audience. Getting glued to the music can seem so indifferent, or rigid, not being able to go with the flow.

The best thing about playing by ear is that if you're playing a melody instrument...parts of the tune can come back to you just before you play them, ie, you can hear them in advance even when you might normally be lost without the music. This is esp true in sessions, where the group kind of carries you along. With back-up instruments, like guitar & bouzouki, improvising adds a nice spark to the group and can drive the lead melody musicians along in a more interesting way, and relieve thier boredom!

[Azalin]

I think the only point I really want to make is that looking at black dots does not damage ears.

True, it doesn't. It will only slow down your progress on playing ITM. You won't learn anything about phrasing and style from black dotes, you'll only get the notes. I guess it can't make you worse though, unless it becomes your principal "input" of irish music. It takes many, many years to really understand how irish music should be played, so "applying what you know on 'downloaded' music in your memory" is just not enough.

[skh]

True, it doesn't. It will only slow down your progress on playing ITM. You won't learn anything about phrasing and style from black dotes, you'll only get the notes.

I think it is common understanding by now that no music notation can convey anything else than a very base skeleton.

I don't understand the continuing insistance that my ability to read music will keep me from, or at least inhibit me in playing traditional music. I'd be very grateful if you'd start judging my playing when you heard some of it, not earlier.

But maybe it is really hard to understand that I would never use sheet music on stage or in session, but still use it at a means to remember stuff, like I use writing.

Thanks,

Sonja

[Lizzie]

Azalin, that is the same with all music. After the black dots, it is then up to the player to add the phrasing and style that are the essence of that genre. There are some who could not do this given a lifetime of listening to a given genre of music if they do not have a degree of musical intelligence. What we know of any genre is 'downloaded' into our memories and then applied. if I were to learn a tune solely by ear from listening to a particular player, am I not then just mimicking that persons particular style?

[skh]

There are religions that refuse to write down any of their sacred words, songs, text, because that would render them profane. Or whyever. Maybe this is the same line of argument as the "don't ever look at sheet music" school uses. This I could live with, as there's no point or need to discuss faith.

Sonja

[arythmic]

Seems like we've all been pretty interested in this thread, not just quick comments or quips, but a lot of thoughtful responses. I think it all shows that there a lot of ways to add new tunes. Playing the music as the tradition would have it requires extensive listening, and playing from sheet music for performance or session is probably not going to yield a traditional sound. We may have some disagreements as to whether tunes can be "uploaded" (great analogy, lmh) from notation or have to be acquired solely by ear. In the end, what comes out of the whistle should be the determining factor. If you are firmly convinced that learning should be "ear only" you are probably not going to change your mind. But, for some of us, notation is a useful tool, and we are not likely to refrain from using it if the situation (no access to master players, limitations of memory [thanks for the confirmation that there are others like me, Lizzie], etc.). It appears from the posts that most who know how to read use notation on occasion.

Madfifer, I am indeed in the artillery. Maybe that's why I have less of an "ear"! Don't know if you get to the eastern theater much, but if yes maybe I'll see you at Gettysburg.

[StevieJ]

If I were to learn a tune solely by ear from listening to a particular player, am I not then just mimicking that persons particular style?

Yes, you would be - except that you'd be very unlikely to mimic it perfectly anyway, unless you put in months or years of effort to become a "clone" of that player.

Anyway, imitation isn't a bad idea you know. We all have our own more or less individual style of speaking our mother tongue, but we didn't learn to speak it from a book! We learned by emulating those around us who were better at it than we were.

I assume you are still a relative beginner at Irish music. This means you have two things to learn - tunes on the one hand, and the style you want to play them in on the other.

When you learn by ear from a recorded source, provided it's a good recorded source, you can learn both, whereas from sheet music you can learn only one - and then, only a static bare-bones version which you, in your ITM infancy, don't really know what to do with.

When you know enough about "the music" and have developed your own style, you'll naturally apply that style to music learned from a sheet. Until that time, you are proabably more likely to apply things that come from other styles of music with which, like it or not, you are more familiar after a lifetime of exposure to these other styles.

When you go to a teacher for lessons, do you listen to what she says? Obviously you do. Well then you are emulating her. And when you try to emulate the way a good player plays a tune on a record, you are using that player as your teacher, nothing more. Once you've mastered what your teachers, in person on record, have to show you, you can use or not use parts of it to suit yourself.

Believe me, I have nothing against sheet music. It's a power tool, if you like. But power tools are not always the best things for the inexperienced.

[Azalin]

if I were to learn a tune solely by ear from listening to a particular player, am I not then just mimicking that persons particular style?

I think that very "good" players have heard many different styles, and create a style of their own based on the different styles they've heard before. This is tradition. A "good" musician would say "eh, this fiddle player is playing Donegal style", etc.