How do you ornament a C natural? C sharp?

[Jon-M]

L.D. McCullough deals with both these issues in great detail in his book on learning the whistle; that's a reasonably authoritative source.
Jon Michaels

[Jens_Hoppe]

Hmmm okay, I'll probably sound negative, but... I don't really "agree" with the

OXXOOO
OXXXXX
OXXOOO
XXXOOO
OXXOOO

To my ears, the roll doesnt come out as neat as a normal roll. I used to practice that roll a lot because it was cool, but at the end I dropped it. The problem also shows up on louder whistles which require more air from CNat to high D.

I haven't tried that roll much, but my first thought is that it does seem a little awkward, especially the part where you "cut" by adding three fingers. I think that would tend to make the roll much les crisp than a normal roll. Also, as you point out, on whistles where there's a gap in air requirements from Cnat to high D, the roll would probably be even more bothersome to implement (this, BTW, is a feature I definitely don't like in whistles!).

Personally, I don't finger ornament Cnat and C# much. While it can obviously be done, I consider those notes less "suitable" for finger ornamentation. And I don't see that as an inherent weakness in whistles which has to be overcome, but rather as one of the whistle's idiosyncrasies; in other words an example of those little (and big!) differences in what various instruments are "good at" and "not so good at", which - together with the difference in sound - is what makes each instrument special and interesting to me.

Jens

[Ro3b]

I agree with Azalin. That roll just doesn't do it for me. A better option is to start with the oxxxox fingering and proceed thusly:

oxxxox C
oxxxxx D "cut"
oxxoxx C
oxxxxx D "cut"
oxxxox C

So you're just trading your 4 and 5 fingers, grabbing the D in between. It's a crannlike thing.

For C#, you might try spreading your upper hand fingers and fanning them down across the first hole, which gives you a series of stuttering B cuts. It looks pretty flashy, too. The only challenge is getting your fingers back on the proper holes. Practice makes less imperfect.

Blah my website blah blah more info blah.

[StevieJ]

I agree with Azalin. That roll just doesn't do it for me. A better option is to start with the oxxxox fingering and proceed thusly:

oxxxox C
oxxxxx D "cut"
oxxoxx C
oxxxxx D "cut"
oxxxox C

So you're just trading your 4 and 5 fingers, grabbing the D in between. It's a crannlike thing.

For C#, you might try spreading your upper hand fingers and fanning them down across the first hole, which gives you a series of stuttering B cuts. It looks pretty flashy, too. The only challenge is getting your fingers back on the proper holes. Practice makes less imperfect.

Blah my website blah blah more info blah.

Like Bloo, Az, Jens and Rob I remain unconvinced by C-nat rolls. Put it this way, I've yet to hear one that sounded convincing and I haven't been able to make it sound convincing myself.

Just tried your C-nat "cran" Rob and it sounds as though it might sound quite reasonable indeed with a bit of practice. Not sure if I'll bother though! As for the C# cran - yes verrry interesting. (I _am_ quite sure I won't bother with that though.).

Here's an alternative that I thought up for long (dotted eighth-note) Cs and C#s, it's an imitation of a fiddling thing and it has a fairly high cheese factor so use with care.

C-nat "wah-ah-wah"
oxx-ooo
oxx-xxo
oxx-ooo

There is a small, barely pereceptible drop in pitch in the middle note that adds a little texture to your otherwise long C. It's like the e-d##-e or A-G##-A thing that fiddlers do going from open string to fourth finger on the next string down and back again. (I put two sharps to show that the middle note is only a microtone flat of the main note,)

As I say, use sparingly and with delicacy otherwise your tackiness quotient will rise unacceptably. I like to do this in reels such as the Congress of Hunter's Purse where there is a long C-nat towards the end of each part that cries out for a little relief (and as I said, C rolls don't cut it (ha ha) with me).

The cheesiness is balanced out somewhat by the subtlety - hardly anyone will notice, and then only if you're playing solo.

For C# (even more cheesy)

ooo-ooo
oxo-ooo
ooo-ooo

Also like to do a wah-ah-wah on A in the first octave in tunes where I would do the same thing on the fiddle, such as the first note in the Moher/Abbey reel:

xxo-ooo
xxo-xxx
xxo-ooo

[Azalin]

By the way, on the newest Christy Barry CD there's a tune where he plays a "roll" on the high D, it's like two cuts in a row, and it's quite neat with some practice. But it doesnt always work (for me), so I can't yet use it to impress girls at the session. (hu, there's NO girls at the session!)

[trisha]

The Low Whistle book has a roll for C# - opinions please...

Quote: the top three fingers of the left hand are just above* the top three finger holes. Now, rapidly and simultaneously "rub" the three fingers over the three finger holes...and take them off again.

*by "above", from the diagram they mean above-towards-the-mouthpiece and the rub is a down-then-out process...I think!

[The Weekenders]

Well, notwithstanding comments above, I found I needed to roll Cnat on the B section of Banish Misfortune at the third measure-fourth beat as an "answer" to the first measure, which rolls (or crans) on the 4th note on Dnat.. That's what got me to the solution I use. Its a sharp Cnat but I play sharp Cnats in Dmixo anyway.