Finally! I've sussed ornamentation!

TonyHiggins · Post by **TonyHiggins** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 12:47 pm

I would suggest thinking about any ornaments in terms of how they effect the rhythm of the tune as opposed to which notes your playing them off. Martin's suggestion is an example of how this works. Listen to recordings, especially slower tunes (Martin Hayes is great for this). Make a note (no pun intended) of how the ornaments, especially rolls and triplets, interact with the phrasing and rhythm. (Note my post in the ITM forum under What to Listen For.) I won't repeat it, I got a headache writing that last time. There is a definite structure for this music and it's not mysterious. (It's not written about much. If someone has some good recommendations for reading, let me know. I heard Matt Cranitch's fiddle book has a good description of music structure, but I haven't seen it.)

If anything is mysterious, it's the creativity of really good musicians who are definitely using intuitively understood rules of structure and applying them artfully. Listen!
Tony

Tantus · Post by **Tantus** » Fri Apr 25, 2003 4:14 am

Crotchet!!? Like Scrooges assistant?

Nick

E = Fb · Post by **E = Fb** » Fri Apr 25, 2003 4:47 pm

I giggle at some of the blarney about ornamentation, especially all the erudite stuff on some web sites. Ornamentation came about because of:
A: highland bagpipes that keep playing a sound, so you had to use ornaments
B: Avoiding unwanted grunts and groans. If you went straight to the note you got a "honk", so you cut or tap to get a cleaner sound
C: playing by ear and not finding the right note the first time.

I use C all the time.

TonyHiggins · Post by **TonyHiggins** » Sat Apr 26, 2003 11:09 am

I giggle at some of the blarney about ornamentation, especially all the erudite stuff on some web sites. Ornamentation came about because of:
A: highland bagpipes that keep playing a sound, so you had to use ornaments
B: Avoiding unwanted grunts and groans. If you went straight to the note you got a "honk", so you cut or tap to get a cleaner sound
C: playing by ear and not finding the right note the first time.

Even if it came about by Mad Cow Disease (in my case, that may be the reason), it's been taken on as a great way to add rhythmic interest to the music. I'd hate for us to throw it out because of dubious origins or for us all to take up highland pipes. And yes, I use short rolls to cover up my grunts and groans when playing slow airs.
Tony

madguy · Post by **madguy** » Sat Apr 26, 2003 1:56 pm

lollycross wrote:Congrats. I have played for 5 years, and I have NOT EVEN TRIED anything but a grace-note here and there. I guess I play with a
"Nevada accent", ha ha
Lolly

Thanks for the uplifting, for me, post, Lolly. Having played now for a bit over 4 years ( a year and a half of which was off and on) I still use only grace notes, slides, cuts and taps - I don't think I'll ever get rolls down!

~Larry

E = Fb · Post by **E = Fb** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 9:02 am

I agree. If Lolly can play on CD's without much if any "ornamentation", then maybe some folks are making too much of it. BTW, thanks for those CD's Lolly (swapped for the glass flute). I use them all the time to practice playing by ear.
Tom.
(I should add that Tony is one helluva good player, and his opinions are worthy of note. Maybe he's part of a new wave that is lifting whistling to a new level of virtuousity. Maybe I've poo-pooed ornamentation in an effort to justify my inability to play a roll. Hmmm. I'll have to think about that one for a while.)

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 11:41 am

It all boils down to personal style. Some players use ornamentation liberally, others rather sparingly, and both approaches are perfectly appropriate, both traditionally and musically.

Although I tend to be somewhat sparing of ornamentation in my own playing, I agree with Tony that I wouldn't want to lose it just because it came about from playing a different instrument (or to cover mistakes)...it's too useful and attractive a way to vary a tune and make it your own.

Redwolf

TonyHiggins · Post by **TonyHiggins** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 1:04 pm

Tom, Thank you for the compliment. Strangely, reading it gives me anxiety. I will say I'm scrambling daily to improve and reach a standard that has already been set way above my head. My greatest inspirations are the fiddle players. I'd mention Kevin Burke and Martin Hayes as having sounds I'd like to emulate on the whistle. For whistle players, I'm in awe of Laurence Nugent. I'm surprised I don't hear more comments about this guy on this board. (If you don't have any of his recordings, start with Windy Gap.)

Lastly, I thought I'd take a friendly poke at Tom because he's Irish and we generally have a refined appreciation for that sort of interaction. I've raised my two teenagers to see the insult as a high art, requiring wit and inventiveness, and it brings us no end of pleasure attacking each other. At work, I take a perverse satisfaction in insulting annoying people in a way they don't even realize they've been made fun of. Okay, I'm a sicko. I'll go back to practicing where I won't do any harm.
Tony

Paul · Post by **Paul** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 1:44 pm

I suppose a lot of the ornamentations I use are wrong but I just try to do what sounds good. Every now and then briefly I get one really right though. It is a great feeling even if it is only for a fraction of a second. This is still a rather infrequent occourence for me, but I find it happening more often the more I play. I have decided to just figure it all out by ear at my own pace and kind of develop my own style. I have often thought that all the current standard Piping and Whistling ornaments must have started out like that originally.

E = Fb · Post by **E = Fb** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 4:16 pm

I think that imitating the fiddle is...well...to put it bluntly...impossibly difficult. The fiddle can deliver so many nuances! I play along side a classically training gal with 20 years of professional experience. The other day we were playing Gravel Walk. She says "try it this way". But what she was doing on the fiddle just couldn't be done on a whistle. It's a great goal to aim for, tho.

spittin_in_the_wind · Post by **spittin_in_the_wind** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 8:26 pm

I'm laughing fatveg, since this is the first time I've actually read this post of yours. Are you sure you weren't sitting next to me at the CCE convention workshop?

Robin

LimuHead · Post by **LimuHead** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 10:41 am

So I guess "sussed" means "got it" or "figured it out" right? What are the roots of this word?

fatveg · Post by **fatveg** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 10:55 am

LimuHead wrote:So I guess "sussed" means "got it" or "figured it out" right? What are the roots of this word?

It's common in Britain -- see http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sussed&r=67

TonyHiggins · Post by **TonyHiggins** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:40 am

E = Fb wrote:I think that imitating the fiddle is...well...to put it bluntly...impossibly difficult. The fiddle can deliver so many nuances! I play along side a classically training gal with 20 years of professional experience. The other day we were playing Gravel Walk. She says "try it this way". But what she was doing on the fiddle just couldn't be done on a whistle. It's a great goal to aim for, tho.

I was noticing the difficulties myself. What I like about the fiddle is the flowing nature of the sound (at least some styles). I'd like to approach that feeling. I've noticed from recording myself that I need to cut back on the amount of tonguing I do and use it more wisely.
Tony

E = Fb · Post by **E = Fb** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 4:07 pm

I "over-tongue" and the only thing that seems to stop this compulsion is when the music is just too fast to do it. What I do then is slap the holes in a sort of "mini cut". It's this punctuation on the whistle that makes it so different from the fiddle. I do it deliberately, but now that this fiddle thing has come up I'm going to look at things differently and see if I can slide around more. I'm not sure I can make the mental leap, but it'll be fun trying.

Chiff and Fipple Forums

Finally! I've sussed ornamentation!

Hrmm..