Am I out of tune? ;)

[MarkP]

A familiar flute story, anyone?

You're in what promises to be a lively session with some very respected players and some learners and a mix of instruments, including a couple or more flutes. Now we all know the old tuning cliche, what do call three players in a session? ...A chord Anyway, that said, I'm not a bad flute player and I have a nice well-adjusted flute, and I have RTTA software at home, and I know where my slide and cork should be, and I have a fair idea of the extent of my personal tuning error at different air pressures. And I'll be honest, I can blow a little bit flat sometimes with a very 'downward' embouchure. Anyway, there we are all hotting up for a fine old tune and I'm sat next to a fairly well known fluter. We tune up with the box, I play with said box player quite often, who has a fairly wide reed tuning but would always be at concert pitch. There is the usual grimacing of 'flute faces' around the room as we all pretend to adjust our tuning slides but knowing exactly where they will end up. And off we go. Said senior flute player breaks off mid tune to grimace some more and after the set announces rather pointedly to the room that 'someone' is out of tune. Suffering from flute player's existential guilt syndrome I usually confess like the Spanish Inquisition in this situation. 'Is it me?', even if I'm sure it's not me. 'Someone is very sharp in the second octave' comes the reply. Now, I'm pretty sure that I'm slightly flat til I've warmed up a and admit as much, making light of it. But apparently I'm wrong and I'm instructed rather loudly that 'a session' is a very different environment fom using a tuner. I meekly confess that I haven't used a tuner, without confessing that I know what a f***ing session is like! I'm asked how far out my cork adjustment is (19mm). At this point I'm about 10mm on my tuning slide and, with my embouchure and RTTA, I know that even blowing like a crazed loon on a cold flute I would not be able to blow sharp in the second. By contrast, said flutist has his slide so far out that its in danger of falling off (more than inch at least) and every law of physic is yelling that the scale must be stretched out on the upper left hand notes. But there you go, I and the other two fluters defer to authority and we play on. At the end I'm given further public instruction to go and work on my sharp second octave playing and try a tuner. Self doubt gets the better of me and I decide to let it go. Fortunately for my bruised ego the session host leans right across him and thanks me for my mighty flute playing. Perplexing, and although I decided to let it go, fluter's self doubt always tends to niggle at you and I sit out the next session to listen rather than mess it up. At a later session I'm playing with another flute player who really is sharp, really sharp!, but we have some good old tunes and stories. But that doubt keeps niggling away at me, so its back to the RTTA software, cork adjustments, lip adjustments, blowing like a compressor, and for the life of me I cannot get that first session tune to register as 'sharp in the second octave' with my flute set up. All in a day's work I guess but how do you all deal with it? Does everyone else also admit they're wrong when they know they're probably right? Do you all admit to being the one who's out of tune?

[benhall.1]

Firstly, yes I've had that happen. Several times on flute and once - only once - on fiddle. In the one instance where that happened on fiddle, it was because I'd had too much drink to be able to tell what my tuning was like. The flute instances were not - I don't play flute if I've had more than a couple of pints.

I have some theories - bear with me. The first is that, sometimes, top players really do have a better ear than even those of us with a really great ear, and they can get picky. So maybe something marginal set him off. Secondly, before the flute has warmed up properly, I have noticed that the scale can get stretched - it usually settles down, for me, by the second set.

However, in the case you mention I wonder if something else was at play. Now, I'm only going by my own experience here, and not casting aspersions or anything else. Something happened to me once, and it's improved my flute playing since. Someone did more or less what you describe, and I thought I was pretty much in tune. (Actually, I still think I was in tune in that instance, and at that point in the evening - I think the person involved was just being mean, deliberately.) It's what happened next that is interesting. As my confidence sapped ("flute player's existential guilt syndrome" - I like that ) my embouchure weakened. And then I really was sharp in the second octave. I persevered and got a grip on myself, but it was a really hard thing to do. Is it possible that something like happened? It would never happen in the home with your RTTA because there's no-one mean around to make you feel guilty and put you off.

As for admitting something that I'm definitely not guilty of, then no, I don't. But flute tuning is such a paranoia-inducing thing that, yes, I would always think it was me in the circumstances you describe. You only need to get a particularly humid, hot pub and your tuning is going to be way different. All sorts of factors could affect it, so I would always question myself. It doesn't help that, in hot pub situations, all the flutes naturally go sharp and all the fiddles naturally go flat. and God knows what happens with them there box thingies.

[Caspermilktoast]

Funny I was just playing a tune along with a piano recording I made and my wife said " are you I the right key? it sounds off"

I know I play in tune but I had just started playing and was not warmed up yet. Even though I know this , its still bothersome lol.

One thing I like to do is play along with a good fiddler on youtube or a recording. I love playing along with Kevin Burke. If I can be in tune with him I know I will do great at a session.

[Mr.Gumby]

If I can be in tune with him I know I will do great at a session.

I don't think that's quite how it works.

[MarkP]

Ha, if only life were so simple!

It was just an odd situation and I wouldn't want to make much of it, although I'm absolutely certain I wasn't sharp and I thought I was slightly flat. One of the other flutes might have been sharp so there might have been a confusion. I was just interested in how others deal with the sensitivities of session tuning. Whether you laugh it off, or take rap, or ask for advice, or ask a third party to adjudicate

[benhall.1]

Ha, if only life were so simple!

It was just an odd situation and I wouldn't want to make much of it, although I'm absolutely certain I wasn't sharp and I thought I was slightly flat. One of the other flutes might have been sharp so there might have been a confusion. I was just interested in how others deal with the sensitivities of session tuning. Whether you laugh it off, or take rap, or ask for advice, or ask a third party to adjudicate

Oh God! I think the worst thing would be to ask a third party. Puts them in a difficult position, and somebody ends up cross. If it's the "well known fluter" who ends up cross, you lose; if it's you who ends up cross, you lose. Nope, there has to be some other way than that.

Actually, it sounds to me as if, on the night, you probably handled it about right. No blood was spilled, and the session carried on with nobody getting really out of shape.

[michael c]

I'm sure you'd prefer not to name the 'senior' flute player, otherwise you would have already done so. Perhaps you could post a photograph of them instead but still not name them. It sounds like they have a few more problems to face up to than just a badly calibrated ear, be that their own or that of their neighbouring musician(s). If we had a picture we could maybe see whether their ears look to be properly positioned on their head for optimum performance.

People who complain in that manner are unlikely ever to be in tune, musically or otherwise.

[sfmans]

People who complain in that manner are unlikely ever to be in tune, musically or otherwise.

Amen to that.

I've played in fabulous sessions that have occasionally may have been a bit dodgy on the tuning front but have produced fabulous music and a pulsating life and energy, and I've played in sessions that were spot-on in tuning and tempo and stylistic correctness but had all the life and vitality of the third hour of a software implementation contract review meeting.

I am not against technical excellence, and I am not in any way suggesting that you shouldn't be as good as you possibly can be and always strive to be better. The very length and detail of the OP shows that they are not someone who ever thinks 'ah, that'll do'. But a session is not a recital, it is not a performance, it is not a recording session, and it is most definitely not a place for seeking perfection at the expense of the flow of the evening.

[an seanduine]

Puts me in mind of the infamous tiff between Tansey and the boxplayer . . .

Bob

[MarkP]

I've no axe to grind with anyone at all, I'm not that consistently good enough to criticise and I may well have been slightly out of tune in the first set. Indeed, I'm pretty sure I was wee bit flat of the box at the time, but your man was flatter The tunes were great. I was just unnerved by the public lecture where a quiet word of encouragement might have served. I guess it was either well meant or there was a little bit of macho rivalry in it I'll be adopting the preventive approach now and enquiring of the general company whether I'm in tune after the first set, so you can all get your listening ears on

PS. When I say 'well known' I mean on the session circuit rather than the elite recording artist scene, great flute player but it wasn't Matt Molloy

[MarkP]

Puts me in mind of the infamous tiff between Tansey and the boxplayer . . .

Bob

I'm waiting for the letter to arrive

[whistle1000]

I was just unnerved by the public lecture where a quiet word of encouragement might have served.



I hear you there! Many years, ago, my whistle teacher invited me out to join the "A crowd session"...I hadn't many tunes at the time...I was playing a newly aquired water weasel D...( I had the set and would like to see them back one day if the person who has worked on them will ever send them back , but I digress) after a set of tunes, the "senior" whistle player/uillean piper threw a tuner across the table, at me, and said "hey, blow into that!" I was mortified and slightly embarrassed...to be honest, I wanted to kick him in the shins...I thought it was very petty and had no place in a session...a little whisper in the ear or a "chat" afterwards would have sufficed....stubborn me has never sat down and played a tune with that man since, and that was 20 something years ago...if a person sees the need to critique another fellow musician, I think the problem would be more theirs than said musician...no need of that, at all, when like minded individual are out to have a few tunes....t'was a lesson learned though and I thank him for that...sure, I didn't even know what a GD tuner was at the time!!

[psychodonald]

The term "bully" comes to mind after reading Mark's post. It is my guess that this "fairly well known fluter," has exhibited this kind of poor behavior in the past, this is, most likely not an isolated incident. His name or his picture isn't of the slightest importance; however, what is important is the damage his comments can have upon others. For want of a better, more detailed explanation, they (the bully) seem to validate themselves by intimidating and humiliating others, so that they can feel more important and powerful. This was, after all, a session, where others have come together to enjoy a common interest, to learn from others who are more accomplished and hone their skill set. By the way, this kind of inappropriate behavior never seems to work out well for the bully in the end, as others in the session view him as an insensitive, socially maladjusted individual to be avoided. After all, who sets out to attend a session with the hope in mind of being publicly humiliated? The consequence for the bully isn't all that pleasant either, as many will recognize him for what he is; the bully seeks importance, acceptance and recognition, but gets just the opposite.

The best way to deal with such a person, in my opinion, is not to push back in an aggressive, mean way, although one might feel justified in doing so, but to approach the "fairly well known fluter" in a private setting and in an assertive fashion let the person know exactly how his behavior impacted you and ask him not to treat you or other session attendees in that way in the future. It might even be mentioned that should he choose to change his approach toward dealing with persons who may be "out of tune," that he and others might have a better experience and enjoy the session more fully. You might even suggest more appropriate ways (ways that you have already identified in your posts) of managing the situation. If indeed, this individual is a bully (and I've made some very broad assumptions that he may well be), the thing that the bully dislikes most is to be confronted on their behavior. Should he choose to dismiss your feelings/thoughts, out of hand, then he has revealed himself for that which he is--an individual to be avoided. Or, you may just simply decide that his behavior is his issue and is not worth your time or effort to attempt to modify. If you choose to attempt to raise this persons level of awareness, remember to be assertive, describe the situation in exact detail and present your thoughts and feelings without rancor.

[an seanduine]

Mark, I think one of the takeaways from this sad passage, would be that your 'senior fluter', as well as Tansey, have shown us just how 'out of tune' one can be without playing a note. . .

Bob

[MarkP]

thanks for sharing, as I say I've no axe to grind with anyone myself and no complaint implied. I might have been in the right or wrong, and I'll pay more attention next time. Clearly we were both worrying about our tuning, which is why I was more interested in the 'existential guilt' phenomenon (which I think we all suffer from) and how other fluters manage it in playing situations, session or peformance. Or more generally, how people approach the management of their tuning.