M&E flute: help, ebonite vs polymer?

[eltiempovuela]

Hello everyone,
this is my first post, so I hope I´m doing it right.
Right to the point:
I have been playing a Tipple D flute for almost a year. I´m also taking boehm classes.
Tipple flute plays fine and in tune, but because the hole spacing is too long for my taste (I´d prefer not using piper´s grip) and because I´d like to play an instrument providing a more "irish" (complex, dark, whatever) tone I´ve decided to go for a conical flute. I also prefer a R&R model over Pratten. I´m completely sure that I need a non wooden flute (for the use I will give it, the places, climate, etc).

After researching this forum and The Session I narrowed the decision to M&E and Shannon Sweet polymer. I´ve read Forbes, Somers, Copley, etc play better, but I can´t spend more than 300 € with shipping. Finally, I decided for M&E for a main reason you may find stupid, but I can´t help: I want the metal rings. I prefer the look of an irish flute with the rings (specially if both flutes play equally fine and in tune, and with similar reedy tone).

Well, my doubt appears when I find out that Mr. Cronnolly makes keyless flutes in polymer AND ebonite (though ebonite keyless are not listed in his web, he has confirmed to me this point). Ebonite M&E keyless flute costs just 20€ more than polymer. I have read that ebonite is a better material for the flute, but asking Mr.Cronnolly he has told me that he considers the polymer flute having "the best" tone. Which I don´t understand... why then would he charge more for the ebonite? If ebonite is a more expensive material (or harder to work), why would he use it if polymer sounds better? In addition, his keyed "deluxe" flute is made of ebonite. I´m really confused, specially when the man himself tells me to buy the cheaper option. the polymer...

I´ve watched Youtube videos trying to appreciate the differences, but due to the poor audio quality they sound even the same as the M&E blackwood flute (that oddly costs almost the same than the others).

Where I live (Madrid) there are not frequent sessions to go and try flutes. So, I hope you can help me with this decision. Does M&E keyless polymer really sound better than M&E keyless ebonite? Has anybody tried both recently? I´m happy to save that 20 bucks, but I want to be sure.

Thanks in advance!!

[greenspiderweb]

As far as tone goes, I prefer the Ebonite by far. It just seems the best tone between wooden and plastic (PVC or Delrin), and I wasn't truly happy before I tried and kept the Ebonite M&E for myself. I have had many good wooden flutes (besides other Delrin and M&E polymers too) and just found that I didn't need the extra expense and care of the wooden flutes, when I found Michael's Ebonite R&R to please me so much and at such a reasonable price.

The polymer M&E is a very nice flute, for sure, but that PVC is softer I believe than Doug Tipples, and cannot be left in a hot car, or it begins to deform a bit, especially unlike Delrin flutes which are more heat resistant. I'm not sure where the melting or softening point of his Ebonite flutes come in there-though I suspect it might be somewhat hardier in nature. Not why I chose it over Delrin-but just the sound I got from it, is what did it for me. But no matter-no flute should be left in a hot car anyway!

Walt Sweet's Shannon is the cheapest of the lot, and from what I've read, a very good player. You can always put some decorative rings on it, if you want, and you will still save a lot of money (unless you pay VAT) on it.

Anyway, yes to the M&E Ebonite-it's a winner in tone, and a darned good flute for the money besides. Try one and see for yourself-it's the only way to know what you like and what works for you.

[Jayhawk]

I also prefer the M&E ebonite. I had an 8 key I played for years. I've moved to a Baubet delrin, but Michael makes very fine flutes. His polymer are very nice, too, but I found the ebonite sounded better to my ears. I suspect he is more accustomed to working the polymer, but most players I know have preferred the ebonite.

Eric

[an seanduine]

I would submit that you are creating of a false comparison when you ask why Mr. Cronnolly charges slightly more for ebonite and yet expresses a preference for his polymer instrument. The worth of a hand crafted article is determined by many different factors, and it would probably be impertinent to ask him to explain all the factors that might go into his pricing.
The first thought that occurs to me, as a one time machinist, is that he may have to maintain two different sets of tooling for the two different materials. The ebonite, while a 'traditional' material, is possibly a little harder to source, and of course the slight difference you found may simply be a difference in cost. The man himself prefers the polymer. You might be guided by this. . .or not. The ebonite will fracture where the polymer would not, and the ebonite will, given enough time and exposure to UV discolor.
Seems to me yous pays yer money and yous takes yer choice.

Bob

[sligofluter]

I own a polymer M&E keyless from 7 years ago, I just moved to a Watson 6 keyed but I have to say I´m very happy with my M&E.

A friend plays the Ebonite model and although I have not noticed a big difference in sound between the two, for 20 € more I would take the ebonite one without hesitation.

You have to consider that the polymer model will have zero maintenance, an ebonite flute will need more care.


About the rings you have to know that my M&E polymer have plastic rings imitating the metalic ones, my rings are ok but my friend flute rings turned in green after a couple of years.

I´m from Granada, drop me a pm if you want to talk deeply in spanish.

David.

[eltiempovuela]

Thank you very much to everybody!

You have been very helpful. I think I will order the ebonite.

David, though I will PM you in spanish, I´ll tell you here about the rings:

About the rings you have to know that my M&E polymer have plastic rings imitating the metalic ones, my rings are ok but my friend flute rings turned in green after a couple of years.

I asked Mr. Cronnolly about the ring options. He sent me a picture with three different models he is using currently. Two of them are steele, the other one is brass chrome plated. Maybe your friend have the chrome plated version, that could have turned green, but according to Mr. Cronnolly, underneath the chrome plate should be brass, not plastic. It´s also possible that he used plastic rings before and now he has changed to brass. Anyway I prefer the steele look with the stripes.

Thanks again to everybody!!

[TWO TOOTS]

Hi eltiempovuela, I have an Ebonite keyless M. & E. flute from Michael, and my son owns the Delrin keyless. These flutes are about 5 years old, and both are fitted with metal ferrules. I believe the newer Delrin models are without the rings these days. Anyway, both flutes play really well, and although not identical in sound ( no two ever are, even if made from the same material ) both sound very good to my ears. The only visual difference is that the finish on the Ebonite is smoother to touch and more reflective/shiny than the Delrin. The Delrin one feels safer in the hand, as a consequence, and may prove useful playing in a hot environment, when one's palms may become moist. The Delrin one is also a bit lighter in weight. ( slightly less dense material than Ebonite )
Have you considered buying a used M. & E. flute. If you get " Hooked " on playing Simple System flutes, like so many people do, it may not be too long before you are looking to upgrade to a more exotic hardwood example in the future. If so, you could save yourself a few Euros and have a bash at winning this on ebay; http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M-E-Irish-Flu ... SwQYZWy4a3

Good Luck ( whatever your choice ) Owen.

[eltiempovuela]

Have you considered buying a used M. & E. flute. If you get " Hooked " on playing Simple System flutes, like so many people do, it may not be too long before you are looking to upgrade to a more exotic hardwood example in the future. If so, you could save yourself a few Euros and have a bash at winning this on ebay; http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M-E-Irish-Flu ... SwQYZWy4a3

Good Luck ( whatever your choice ) Owen.

Hi Owen,
thanks for your help.
Actually I would happily buy an used flute (my Yamaha Boehm wasn´t new when I bought it and it works great) saving these Euros I need, but I have been searching this forum exchange instruments posts, ebay, and other sites, and I haven´t found exactly what I was looking for. I´ve found some Seerys, more expensive stuff... and I had seen the ebay auction you send me, but the flute comes without the rings. Mr. Cronnolly now uses steele rings for the polymer flutes that I´d like to have. I´ve considered buying a flute without them and adding them myself, but I don´t want to affect the sound or other characteristics of the flute messing around with it. I´m not very skilled with hand crafted works. Also, the fact that Mr. Cronnolly would return my money if I´m not satisfied with the flute makes me feel more confident than buying it online to an unknown person. Actually, the shop where I bought my used Yamaha offered me this return policy warranty.

Anyway, if you know of anyone trying to sell one of these flutes, I would consider buying it.

Everybody is being very helpful. I wish I could do the same someday.
Have a nice day everybody!!

[eltiempovuela]

I think it could be useful for somebody in the future if I share the photo Mr. Cronnolly sent me where you can see the 3 kinds of rings he is currently using with polymer and ebonite flutes:




The one in the middle should be the ebonite one (he calls it the "deluxe flute"), and is the one wearing the brass chrome plated rings. The other two are made of steel.

And I have just realized that I didn´t tell my name!
I´m Alvaro!

Thanks again to everybody.

[eltiempovuela]

Hello,

I´ve written 3 long replies during the day thanking everyone and adding some comments on some of your answers.
They were more elaborated so I hope they will be finally published.
Just in case, I try with this short one, just to say that you have been very helpful and I really appreciate your opinions.

Glad I came to you.
Thanks everyone!

[accordionstu]

[quote="
Have you considered buying a used M. & E. flute. If you get " Hooked " on playing Simple System flutes, like so many people do, it may not be too long before you are looking to upgrade to a more exotic hardwood example in the future. If so, you could save yourself a few Euros and have a bash at winning this on ebay; http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M-E-Irish-Flu ... SwQYZWy4a3

Good Luck ( whatever your choice ) Owen.[/quote]


That link is the flute I offered for sale on here but no takers, I have a buyer if this doesn't sell on eBay, I also have a nice block mounted cocuswood flute on eBay for a decent price.

[TWO TOOTS]

Just one last comment Alvaro that may give you food for thought. The metal ferrules or rings that you see on the sockets were initially made to reinforce " Wooden " flutes to help withstand pressure exerted by the threaded or cork wrapped tenons that were inserted into them. The rings you see on the modern flutes made from the more durable, stable and to some extent elastic materials such as Polymers, are there purely for the sake of appearance only. Evidence of this is born out by the fact that many makers have dispensed with them altogether. Now I know they look prettier, but the question you might ask yourself is " Should I forego appearance and possibly get a used bargain, or should I pay another 100 Euro or so for 6 inexpensive steel rings ? " Like I said - Food For Thought.

Hope this helps - Owen.