Embouchure fault?

[Mikethebook]

I've just noticed that when playing into the second octave of my Goldie Low D, I automatically begin to increase the size of my mouth cavity so that when I reach A & B I'm blowing through a large cavity, which can't be efficient for playing the higher notes in the second octave and probably makes for loud strained notes. Trouble is I find it very difficult to play the upper second octave when my teeth are close to touching. Any thoughts please?

[Sirchronique]

Blow harder

[Mikethebook]

Very funny! But with the pieces I'm learning/playing that isn't an option. I need to use air as efficiently as possible because of limitations on breathing spaces.

[Sirchronique]

Very funny! But with the pieces I'm learning/playing that isn't an option. I need to use air as efficiently as possible because of limitations on breathing spaces.

This would make more sense if we were talking about transverse flutes, as they offer control over factors such as air consumption, volume, tone, etc. On a fipple flute with a fixed windway you are, for the most part, limited in regards to those factors. My initial response was partly serious, as you must blow at a specific pressure to get the note to sound in the correct octave and at the desired pitch, and there is really no way to get around that on a fipple flute. The pressure required to sound each note at the desired pitch is fixed.

Your teeth don't need to touch. I always leave a small gap between my upper and lower teeth, with the jaw in a relaxed yet stable position, with the cheeks kept comfortably firm. I don't notice any difference in the size of the cavity in my mouth unless I were to intentionally make a conscious effort to change it. If the problem is that you are opening your mouth cavity too much to where your cheeks are bulging out when playing the high notes, then the solution is simply to not do that. I'm not sure if I'm completely clear on the issue, but if you are moving your mouth in an undesirable way when playing the high notes, it might just be a case of needing to practice slowly and make extra sure you don't do it, and to stop the undesired habit each time it occurs. Over time the tendency to do that should diminish if you focus on not doing it.

I'm not sure what type of tunes you are playing that limit where you are breathing, but as far as Irish trad goes it is really quite open-ended regarding where you can breathe, and learning how to incorporate breaths into different parts of a tune is extremely important, as where you place breaths can actually produce a desired musical effect, as it is an important part of your phrasing. Maybe looking at how other skilled players phrase the tune and where they are breathing might help with some ideas in this regard.

If you are playing some other type of repertoire where you really truly must sustain a note and can not stop at any point to breathe, you could use circular breathing to sustain the note.

Another idea- If you are having trouble sustaining high notes without having your mouth wide open, you might take a look at what muscles you are using to push the air out. Using more of the abdomen to push or a change in posture may help with this. If you are pushing from your upper chest or relying on your cheeks to squeeze air out you might find you are becoming exhausted more quickly and using air less efficiently.

[brewerpaul]

Goldies do take quite a bit of air to bump up into the second octave. I'm of the school of thought that says that embouchure is meaningless in a whistle or other fipple flute. It's all about air velocity.

[Mikethebook]

Thanks for the replies. It is just a bad habit that I need to get out of. My cheeks don't bulge but my mouth opens wider without me thinking about it. Ingrained habits take a bit of getting out of. My "repertoire" doesn't allow for easy breath breaks, the phrases being often long, uninterruptible and involving high notes that really push breath control and consumption to the limits. But I'm playing a medium blowing Goldie that does have great air efficiency and I do breathe from my diaphragm. Circular breathing may be an option but it looks so difficult to learn.

I'm afraid I don't agree with either of you that embouchure has no relevance in a whistle and, while I don't want to put words into his mouth, I don't think Colin would agree either. A certain air velocity/pressure has to be reached to play a particular note. If you blow the same volume of air down two straws with different diameters you will achieve a higher velocity of air in the narrower straw, right, for the same amount of air. Ensuring the mouth cavity is minimised and that the lips are pursed enough to produce as small a hole as possible will ensure a note can be played with economy of breath and, in the case of higher second octave notes, with a volume that is more in line with first octave notes. Of course it depends on where you place the fipple. This is not possible if the opening to the windway is inside your mouth but if it rests of the edge of your bottom lip, then there is scope for controlling the amount of air entering the windway.

[ChristianRo]

Three things:
First: Decrease the cavity in your mouth. Just as if you had bitten into a lemon. This increases air velocity.
Second: Flex your belly muscles, engage your diaphragm. This gives your breath support.
Third: Blow with confidence. Don't shy back from loudness. Belt the high As and Bs out and throw them onto the floor before you.
Works with my pupils every time.

[Mikethebook]

Thanks for that Christian. I'm doing them all but the first and need to retrain myself not to open the mouth cavity as I get higher in the second octave. I'm trying to imagine what it would be like to bite into a lemon. Do you keep the teeth apart?

[Tommy]

A certain air velocity/pressure has to be reached to play a particular note.

The pressure required to sound each note at the desired pitch is fixed.

Both correct.

I'm of the school of thought that says that embouchure is meaningless in a whistle or other fipple flute. It's all about air velocity.

I agree with Paul, and would add that a flute embouchure is the players mouth. A whistle embouchure is at the wind way exit. No amount of players mouth contortions are going to change it to a person listening. The player may hear something different coming up their eustachian tube.

The archives have plenty of threads on this subject of ''whistle embouchure''. I have yet to see/hear a scientific experiment that an unbiased listener could say that a whistle player changing their mouth changes the sound of a whistle.

A certain air velocity/pressure has to be reached to play a particular note. If you blow the same volume of air down two straws with different diameters you will achieve a higher velocity of air in the narrower straw, right, for the same amount of air.

If you blow the same volume of air down two straws

I am assuming that when you say ''the same volume of air'' your meaning - if you blow air at the same amount of pressure down two straws of different sizes the velocity will be greater in the small tube.

[Mikethebook]

Okay, but given the idea of the two diameters of straw, surely by careful pursing of the lips one can create the given velocity of air for a particular note but using less actual air.

[Tommy]

Okay, but given the idea of the two diameters of straw, surely by careful pursing of the lips one can create the given velocity of air for a particular note but using less actual air.

I understand more clearly now that your trying to control the air flow into the whistle wind way entrance by pursing the lips over the wind way entrance.
I have now tried that and it seems more easy to try with a straight wind way than a curved wind way.
I find it easier to control air flow to a whistle with my diaphragm.

[Mikethebook]

I agree that it's easier to do with a straight windway. In moderating the air at the point of entry to the winday it is possible to play a high second octave note for longer and more quietly. This is something that Colin Goldie taught me to do. I also play from the diaphragm but a small mouth cavity and pursed lips enhance the speed of the air entering the windway making for more economic playing . . . especially when it's on something like a Low D.

[ytliek]

I'm not a low whistler but I watch everything I can on whistling. You've possibly seen these two videos which provide some excellent close up camera work on the embrochure. Granted neither video is music played with long, sustained notes, however, what I want to mention is both Alan Doherty and Colin Farrell do open their mouths while playing, Doherty more so and he moves the whistle from side to side of mouth (smiles and laughs too). Farrell maintains a fairly straight on hold from center of mouth/lips. And both players seem to rest whistle on outside of lips, rather than inserting into mouth. Everyone's playing style/form varies. Competent, comfort, and pleasure are whistle playing goals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoBx-D5BH_I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSON-NBWfTg

If you know the problem then stop doing it. Practice changing the way you play to accommodate what you're trying to achieve. Good luck, as habits are hard to break. I've had to break a few.

[greenspiderweb]

Okay, but given the idea of the two diameters of straw, surely by careful pursing of the lips one can create the given velocity of air for a particular note but using less actual air.

I understand more clearly now that your trying to control the air flow into the whistle wind way entrance by pursing the lips over the wind way entrance.
I have now tried that and it seems more easy to try with a straight wind way than a curved wind way.
I find it easier to control air flow to a whistle with my diaphragm.

Hey Mike, yes, I know what you're talking about-it's not about the sound from the audience's perspective, but from the player's ear, and I do agree about embouchure control for a low whistle, and similar to a low flute-how you purse your lips and mouth cavity make a difference in the tone to the player's ear to either flute or low whistle, to make a difference in tonal qualities. Just playing louder does not make sense. You need to compensate for tonal differences as you play. Sometimes even backing off on the force in playing the upper octave makes a low whistle play easier, and more in tune, without so much effort.

We're not talking about jigs and reels here, for sure. More ballads and slow airs. That is completely different from the standard ITM repertoire that most relate to.

I also believe that materials play a part in the tone, as to whether the fundamental
tone is from brass, aluminum, blackwood, or boxwood,etc., and each play a part in tonal differences that can be heard from the player's ear. I have no interest in tone that can be heard from the audience's ear, and that no doubt can be argued to be quite different and limited in tonal qualities, from what we players hear. The subtleties that a player's ear can hear are lost in the mass communication such as when played in a band, ensemble, or session.

Even though I don't seek to play in the upper octaves like you do, Mike, I think the important part is recognizing when you have gotten some control over the range you are playing, and do whatever that works for yourself to be there. People are different, and whistles are different, and when you combine the two ,there are so many variables, that it just takes time to discover your own path, and follow that from your own perspective. No two players are alike, though maybe similar-you and Davy Spillane may be very close in technique and tonal attributes, but getting there is an individual journey, I believe.

I don't think there are any shortcuts. They are there when you find them in you own playing. But I think you are on the way to discovery, as you question your technique, and that can only lead to improvement in time.

[tstermitz]

Sorry. For me the mouth shape does change the sound in terms of quality, volume, and pitch. I'm willing to be agnostic on how MUCH someone not near-field would notice, but there is definitely such a thing as embouchure for a whistle player.

I notice this on recorder, my old Generation, my tweaked Generation and my Gene Milligan (D whistles). The Milligan sounds a bit "windy" unless you shape the quality at which point it can become very resonant and warm. The tweaked Generation (Thanks, Jerry!) has such a clean sound already that you can pretty much just blow into it. The old Generation require a bit of embouchure finesse to keep the volume and tone in place, and to get a good bell note.

I'm not confident I could explain how to do it. It comes with practice, and slower tunes are a good place to work on it. Trying to bend the pitch of notes is another practice.

I think what I'm noticing has more to do with the resonant space & quality of your mouth, and floating the breath rather than just blowing hard or soft.

I'm of the school of thought that says that embouchure is meaningless in a whistle or other fipple flute. It's all about air velocity.

I agree with Paul, and would add that a flute embouchure is the players mouth. A whistle embouchure is at the wind way exit. No amount of players mouth contortions are going to change it to a person listening. The player may hear something different coming up their eustachian tube.

The archives have plenty of threads on this subject of ''whistle embouchure''. I have yet to see/hear a scientific experiment that an unbiased listener could say that a whistle player changing their mouth changes the sound of a whistle.