new keyed chanter

[Steampacket]

"Just a note to say that my instruments are based on a study of the output of the principle four Pipemakers of the first half of the 19th century and not just my Harrington set. To have arrived at an understanding of the genre would be enough . To be constantly improving one's work is my aim... perfection is for another lifetime.

I have played one of Benoît's keyed chanters .It is an impressive piece of work!" Geoff W.

Yes Geoff, but I hope you're not thinking of constructing a chromatic chanter with piano keys?

[tompipes]

I doubt that Hill & McMahon would be so daft as to play the Bucks in E.

https://youtu.be/GdHAs4NCdWw

Noel's not daft.

If you want to limit your ability to play in certain keys that's fine and your own business to do so. But it's nonsense to say that some keys are traditional and some keys aren't traditional.
Seamus Ennis played it in C#, Kieran Collins played it in C and Tommy Potts in Eb.

You going to call them daft too?

Tommy

[Mr.Gumby]

You going to can them daft too?

With the exception of Tommy Potts they were all playing transposing instruments to get to the key they're in. Arguably they didn't change key at all, they changed instrument.

[oliver]

I just have one question in mind : does anybody have any ideas as to why Benoît's chanters never made their way among the piping community, as he says himself ? If it apparently is some progress, why didn't all or most pipers rush to get one ?

[tompipes]

Arguably they didn't change key at all, they changed instrument.

I get your point, same fingering system. But definitely different keys.

If it apparently is some progress, why didn't all or most pipers rush to get one ?

As great as they might be, it's expensive to just switch chanters. I wonder if he's making them full-time? Haven't seen many over this side of the Atlantic. Good point though.

[geoff wooff]

"Just a note to say that my instruments are based on a study of the output of the principle four Pipemakers of the first half of the 19th century and not just my Harrington set. To have arrived at an understanding of the genre would be enough . To be constantly improving one's work is my aim... perfection is for another lifetime.

I have played one of Benoît's keyed chanters .It is an impressive piece of work!" Geoff W.

Yes Geoff, but I hope you're not thinking of constructing a chromatic chanter with piano keys?

No Tom, I do not even offer the traditional types in Equal Temperament, though most are quite chromatic ( in a Monochord temperament) and some will play three full octaves although usually they are only reliable as far as G in the third.

For information; I make sets in five different keys ( D,C#,C,B and Bb). Delay is ridiculous and waiting list is closed !

Geoff.

[tompipes]

I do not even offer the traditional types in Equal Temperament

I made one in D once. All 23 notes at exactly 0 on the electric tuner. It was used for some contemporary music recordings. It served a purpose and sounded like pipes but it was there was no character to the chanter whatsoever and sounded just awful against drones. Fine for the recording studio sessions for the producers not used to uilleann pipes. That's it though.

[Steampacket]

"If you want to limit your ability to play in certain keys that's fine and your own business to do so. But it's nonsense to say that some keys are traditional and some keys aren't traditional. Seamus Ennis played it in C#, Kieran Collins played it in C and Tommy Potts in Eb. You going to call them daft too?" Tommy

Seamus and Tommy often played solo. Seamus wasn't known to be of a shy disposition He played the tunes on the pipes he had. Tommy I believe tuned his fiddle according to how he felt that day. Noel is playing solo in the sound clip, it's a performance, for dancers I believe, not in a session together with other musicians. As I said before I'm talking of playing trad. tunes in a session in concert pitch D. The same tunes in a session where the instruments are tuned down to Bb or C would be just as traditional. Though that was obvious. I don't see how Benoit's new keyed chanter with the ability to play in different keys will be of great interest to the majority of pipers. Prehaps to professional pipers that perform new material or play tunes outside of the traditional Irish repertoire?

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

Hi Benoît, I had a thread here about playing Fiddle tunes, you might find that of interest. For G minor you could just get a C chanter - or whistle - and finger them in A minor, of course. I wonder what pipers do to deal with these headaches. The only piping records I buy are from pure drop types, I can't even name bands with pipers in them, have no idea if they've figured out how to play this stuff in some fashion. There are a couple of local lads who do a good job. My solution was to just give up bothering trying to play the pipes with other people, if it's more than a pair of others I can't hear what's coming out of the chanter anyway, all the nice qualities about the pipes just get lost in the mix. But that's just my take on things.

In that thread I tried to document things that the chanter has a hard time doing - semitones of course, but also ornamenting things in the middle of the scale or making wide interval leaps. All of these things have become commonplace in modern tunes, and I wonder if the fiddle and box aren't more influential on the music now. Of course there are still sessions where people crank out pipe friendly stuff like the Maid Behind the Bar and Out on the Ocean all night long. I wonder which type of session leads the pack anymore. That would tell you whether a new type of chanter would be popular nowadays. Other instruments have gone through evolution towards being more suitable for Irish music, too - box, flute, concertina, whistle, stringed stuff.

Tommy linked to the oldflutes.com website, your ring keywork makes me think of the Pentenrieder and Pupeschi system flutes, which are documented there. These were hardly more than patents but did look like they could make some of the fingering on the flute more automatic. I like innovations and novelties, my own flat set has 5 regulators which I sketched out on my own for my pipemaker, I had to think of a way of throwing in a double bass regulator that wouldn't involve having to use Taylor type keywork (with reversed keys etc) and came up with a novel approach - like a Taylor G bass reg, basically, pardon the pun I don't think something like that had been done before - although I could never figure out how Ronnie Wathen's double bass was yoked up, used to stare at the pics of him for hours wondering what was going on there...maybe Geoff can shed some light here, he built the thing after all, albeit a couple of eons ago. I'll pass the magical 21st year of "piping" milestone this Christmas and when I think about just that I get a bit too!

[NicoMoreno]

I think it muddies the waters to equate "absolute" pitch with "relative" key. Seamus Ennis playing on a C# set is no different (no less or more traditional) than Leo Rowsome playing on his sharp set, in my mind - they're both playing tunes in the same "keys", just with the instrument at hand. So let's forget about absolute pitch and focus on relative key. With that said, I otherwise agree with the spirit of Tommy's post. A better example involving Seamus Ennis is his choice of relative key for the Song of the Books (Amhran an Leabhair). It would be folly indeed to claim that what he's doing is not traditional because he played in Gm instead of Am. Also, I do love the mind-exercises done to ignore counterexamples that prove the original point is erroneous - ie Noel Hill playing in E proves that he is indeed "daft enough" to do so... But Steampacket has proven many times before that he will simply discount anything that goes against his preconceived, personal, definition of what "traditional" means. I think it's the difference between prescriptive and descriptive philosophies. His is a purely prescriptive, whereas I believe most traditional musicians lie somewhere between the two, but closer to a descriptive philosophy. To each his own, but I'd recommend not trying to change his mind, it's impossible.

[Steampacket]

" Also, I do love the mind-exercises done to ignore counterexamples that prove the original point is erroneous - ie Noel Hill playing in E proves that he is indeed "daft enough" to do so... But Steampacket has proven many times before that he will simply discount anything that goes against his preconceived, personal, definition of what "traditional" means." NicoMoreno

“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” Robert M. Pirsig.

"I think it's the difference between prescriptive and descriptive philosophies. His is a purely prescriptive, whereas I believe most traditional musicians lie somewhere between the two, but closer to a descriptive philosophy. To each his own, but I'd recommend not trying to change his mind, it's impossible." NicoMoreno

I only carried the lady across the river, then I put her down. Are you still carrying her?

[benoit trémolières]

Well,well,well.....
I knew since the beginning that it will be very difficult to get the thing properly understood, without sounding exemples !

Like many people here, I'm convinced that there's no future for the Pipes in "chromatic,Eq-tempered,band-music ".(As it has been proved during the XIX century ...)
But my chanters look too much like classical instruments, to avoid people leaping on the belief that the " all-purpose bagpipes" is finally availlable!

I'm aware that my "system" will never become a standart.
It allows just a few more tricks. The point is: it is too huge a work for such a small improvement !

But I take for certain that some people will be interested to get one, as soon as I can show for what it is made for.

So next step : Make one for miself!

[Coffee]

Okay... enough arguing.
Where there's two pipers, there's three opinions! It seems uilleann pipers aren't nearly as different from us highland pipers as their instruments are from ours!

I have but one question; when will I be able to try out one of your chanters, Mr. Trémolières?

[benoit trémolières]

As soon as possible !
But I have first to focus my efforts on something more " saleable".
For now, I'm working to achieve a full set ( D pitched), whitch is the less I can do to become a TRUE pipemaker.
But because some needs of money, the job is regularly interrompted by other things, like various chanters, sets of drones or practice-sets.
Anyway, if somebody's interrested, part of this extra-job could be one of these " famous" chanters

[elbowmusic]

Would love to see a video...