How important is lifting the first finger on High D, really?

[MKE_Chris]

Sorry if this is a repeat topic, I tried a search, but I don't think I'm picking the right keywords...

My question is regarding fingering for the second octave "D." I know the "proper" fingering is oxxxxx, and I *do* think there is a discernible difference in tone and tuning. Currently, I usually use the proper fingering on longer notes and in slower pieces because I have time to think about it, but when playing at speed or very familiar tunes I'm in the habit of just playing xxxxxx (all fingers down). Frankly *I* don't notice a difference in these situations, but when watching master players closely I notice that, even at blazing speeds, they execute each high D in the "first finger up" position.

So am I missing out on something by playing the high D in this fashion? Is it worth it to retrain my fingers (a process indeed, they are rather stubborn)?

[benhall.1]

Hello and welcome to the forums. It's an interesting question. The lazy part of my brain is always inclined to try to justify not lifting the finger. I was at the Joe Mooney Summer School the other week and participated in a flute class with John Wynne. I asked the kids in the class what they thought about lifting the first finger on the middle D and they looked at me gone off (to use the UK phrase). They said that, however fast the passage they were playing they would always lift that finger and couldn't understand why anyone wouldn't. And, I'm afraid, it really does make a difference to the sound. The middle D should pop, in a similar fashion - though not the same - as the way the bottom D has that nice bump to it, even if you're not actually honking it. The middle D only pops when you lift the first finger, as far as I can tell. Maybe some brilliant player could make it pop without, but why not do it properly? And also, the brilliant players, as you have discovered, in fact do lift that first finger every time.

[Gabriel]

When the tuning is different for xxx xxx and oxx xxx, there's something wrong with the flute. oxx xxx does nothing else than opening the flute bore at a pressure node (I think it's called like that, I'm not a physicist) which forces the first harmonic of low D to sound, or locks the air column to that note. When you play xxx xxx, you and your embouchure lock the harmonic and it's much easier to loose it again.

Tone-wise, I must say that I don't really care, of course there are people who insist on that xxx xxx sounds more shaded, mystical, whatever. For me, middle D is middle D and is played with oxx xxx and that's it.

When teaching, I suggest people to use oxx xxx as their sole fingering for middle D for this reason: playing crans on middle D is much easier with the c# hole open. With c# closed you will most certainly end up at the second harmonic of low D after playing a cut, especially if the cut is played with LH3. And that is a (slightly flat) high A, which you certainly don't want in a middle D cran.

PS: on an eight key flute, try playing middle C with xox xxx ,, - it will give you the best possible and strongest middle C the flute can achieve. Even better than using the C natural key. Principle is the same like using oxx xxx for middle D. It also works for middle c# by using x,xx xxx, (C natural key open, C# foot key closed), but that's awkward to play.

[JGrant-Skerries]

Agree that lifting the top finger for D should be the default. If it's awkward on faster tunes it just means that more practice is needed. Once that''s done, though, keeping the top finger down allows an alternative sound when you apply more pressure. It allows you to wallop the D and make a rough sound that's great for percussive effect.

Jim

[jim stone]

There are skilled players who favor all fingers down, liking the edgier sound, though most favor the left index up. I don't think it matters all that much, especially at speed.

[monkeymonk]

When teaching, I suggest people to use oxx xxx as their sole fingering for middle D for this reason: playing crans on middle D is much easier with the c# hole open. With c# closed you will most certainly end up at the second harmonic of low D after playing a cut, especially if the cut is played with LH3. And that is a (slightly flat) high A, which you certainly don't want in a middle D cran.

Yeah, lovely clear crans with the c# hole open - I had a hell of a time when first I tried learning to play them with c# closed (where was Gabriel when I needed him ).

I usually play the middle d with the c# hole opened - probably because that's how I had learned to finger it on the whistle but also because it's just easier for making that nice transition from A through c natural (or c#) to d.
I don't switch to covering the c# hole when playing fast unless I want that nice punchy sound...also in certain instances like the second part of Father Kelly's reel where it goes: d2Bd gdBd which I play as below because it's just easier that way.
oxx xxx (2)
xoo ooo
xxx xxx
xxx ooo
xxx xxx
xoo ooo
xxx xxx

All the best,
Bob

[monkeymonk]

but when watching master players closely I notice that, even at blazing speeds, they execute each high D in the "first finger up" position.

I don't think that's entirely true. If you look at this ever famous clip of Matt Molloy playing the Bucks of Oranmore you can see in the 3rd part he plays the middle d with his index finger down. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS7NxJDp4zQ

BTW, I don't have lasers for eyes; I used an app to slow the video down and listened for a honk on the middle d.

Also, here is a lovely version of the Old Favorite played by Sean Cunningham where in the first part he plays a nice, punchy middle d by covering the c# hole: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4U3LTYv5nY

All the best,
Bob

[MKE_Chris]

Thanks for the rather thorough insight, folks. I'm certainly going to continue attempting to untrain my old habit, I suppose I'd rather have it as another tool in my toolbox rather than a limitation.

[JGrant-Skerries]

That's exactly the correct attitude!!!

Jim

[tin tin]

Here's Jack Coen's take, based on notes here: http://firescribble.net/flute/coen.html

Jack observed that most of us opened the topmost tonehole when we played the high D, but said that it's not necessary and just makes for more work. You can use the same fingering for the high D as the low D: all fingers down. I personally find that my flute "sings" a touch more fully if I open the top hole on the high D, but it would only be noticeable in slow tunes or airs. For dance music it doesn't matter.

[2T00TS]

I'm quite stubborn when it comes to my middle D. When I popped down to my local session, I bumped into a seasoned flute playing friend, and these were the pearls of wisdom he had to say on the subject. " If you want to do a proper job of it with that punchy sound you've gotta lift that lefty index finger for maximum honk and wallop ! " I said, " That's alright for you to say, but what about when playing at blazing speed ? " He replied, " That finger should be going up and down that fast, all you should see is a mighty digital blur with the intensity to set your flute aflame. "
I'm always open to friendly advice but I had a sneaky suspicion that he was winding me up.

[dunnp]

Be wary of anyone advising there is only one fingering for any given note.
Flexibility, colour, context

One of those ah ha moments for me was realising I needed to let my notions of
One correct fingering go.

[Roots School]

Be wary of anyone advising there is only one fingering for any given note.
Flexibility, colour, context

One of those ah ha moments for me was realising I needed to let my notions of
One correct fingering go.

Amen to that.