Can flute-type keys be added to a standard high D whistle

[Chuck_Clark]

Been rather a long time since I last visited. And, naturally, I return with a problem....

Advancing age and disability are putting a major cramp in my whistling just at a time when I agreed to return to playing with other players. Specifically, arthritis in the first three fingers of both hands accompanied by neuropathy (numbness/lack of feel in the fingertips) is making it increasingly difficult to get a proper seal on the toneholes. My only exception is a conical French whistle from the mid-nineteenth century. That whistle has a slight rim bead around each hole but its no good for playing with others because its tuned to the older standard and plays about a half tone low.

Has anyone ever tried fitting a standard D whistle with clarinet or flute type keys? I'd prefer the type that leaves the hole open at rest to shorten the muscle memory learning curve. I have a variety of whistles, both inexpensive and not so inexpensive and I am willing to experiment, although I'd prefer not to risk experimentation that might damage or deface one of the better ones.

Even if you have no actual experience with the topic, I welcome any ideas. I've been playing too long to relish the idea of giving it up now.

Thanks

[MTGuru]

Hi Chuck, welcome back.

If you mean "has it ever been done", then yes. Mr. Gumby (Peter L.) here has posted photos of vintage whistles made with simple system keywork. These probably dated from pre-WW2 or earlier. There have been other variations of keyed whistle-y or recorder-y fipple flutes, the names of which escape me at the moment. I'd have to look them up.

If you mean "could you do it yourself", how are your metallurgy skills? Our Jon C. who knows how to hot cast keys and posts and solder it all together probably could.

Another option is David O'Brien's whistle-piccolo hybrid, which had a thread revival today. Maybe that's what inspired you to post?

Keep in mind when you say "clarinet or flute type keys" that the modern orchestral keywork is Boehm system (or Albert system). Off the shelf keys won't fit, and are probably not what you'd want anyway.

[MTGuru]

As for the hole-sealing / neuropathy problem, there are other less drastic things you could try. For example, you could ...

o Rough the edges of the tone holes a bit. That might be enough to give you the tactile feedback you want.

o Wear a rubber surgical glove on the problem hand. The extra squishiness might give you more leeway if you don't always cover the holes dead on. The reduced sensation might not bother you if you already have reduced sensation.

o Use thin O-rings to create ridges to "channelize" each problem hole. Two rings per hole, one just above and one just below, and spaced wide enough for your finger. Inexpensive, reversible, and makes it much harder to miss the hole while not fundamentally changing the intonation or your playing technique.

o Create your own raised rims around the holes with cyanoacrylate or blu-tack or some other glue or putty.

o Cut a small squares of sandpaper and glue/tape them over each hole. Cut out the holes with an X-Acto knife. Instant tactile pads.

[Mr.Gumby]

If you mean "has it ever been done", then yes. Mr. Gumby (Peter L.) here has posted photos of vintage whistles made with simple system keywork.

There you go, again:

[Lars Larry Mór Mott]

A scalloped whistle might help too. My Löfgren Bb feels fantastic, like the uilleann pipe chanter made by Mickey Dunne that spawned the idea.

[MTGuru]

There you go, again:

Thanks, Mr. G.

Re-reading this, I realize (doh) that Chuck is really asking about keys to cover the 6 main holes. Along the lines of the Susato low whistle keys, or Boehm closed hole flute. (But not along the lines of clarinet, which uses ring keys or no key on the main tone holes, all of which need to be sealed properly with the fingers.)

Well, at least the vintage whistle shows that some kind of keywork is possible. I guess you could try to devise a smaller version of the glue-on Susato key, Or just go with the whistle-piccolo. Either will significantly alter the playing technique. But at least there's precedent that silver flute/piccolo can work for trad, if you're willing to relearn the F/F#/C fingerings.

I still think my simpler suggestions above are worth a try first.

A scalloped whistle might help too.

Yes, interesting.

[david_h]

Not what the OP is asking but would this (link is from another current discussion) be an alternative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EifrBCbiV7o

added: I just noticed that it may be what MTGuru is referring to

[MTGuru]

Not what the OP is asking but would this (link is from another current discussion) be an alternative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EifrBCbiV7o

Yes, maybe. I mentioned the whistle-piccolo twice above.

[david_h]

Yes, noticed after I posted but didn't get in with the edit quick enough - the edit is timed the same as your post !

[MTGuru]

[Chuck_Clark]

Extremely interesting. MTGuru is right. I don't want a chromatic whistle or hybrid, just a way to play my soprano D for a few more years. I also wrote to Mack Hoover, who has helped me out in the past, for his ideas. And you're both right, ANY solution that helps me with the seal issue is worth trying. Starting, I think, with the O-ring idea. In addition to raising the rims, the tactile feel of the rubber would logically be expected to aid in finger placement.

The other possibility I like is the one apparently used on some Susato lows. As I understand it, they're glued on but I have no idea otherwise how they work. Is it safe to assume that a piece of springy material is fitted with a pad and glued on above or below the hole, then just pressed down to seal it? That might work for me if I can find a suitable material since I've always been sort of heavy handed on a whistle or keyboard anyway. Does the pad material matter? I know most of them seem to be fibrous, but I'm wondering if a non-porous material like silicon rubber (which could also be custom molded for each placement, might not work better.

Not so sure about the abrasion idea, though. I'd really rather not risk defacing the whistle without some prior conviction that it would work.

Fortunately, I've several cheap whistles upon which I can experiment without risking the better ones.

And thank you.

[maki]

Probly not the way you want to go but, the anglo concertina has
been very kind to my high milage hands.

[whistlecollector]

Extremely interesting. MTGuru is right. I don't want a chromatic whistle or hybrid, just a way to play my soprano D for a few more years. I also wrote to Mack Hoover, who has helped me out in the past, for his ideas. And you're both right, ANY solution that helps me with the seal issue is worth trying. Starting, I think, with the O-ring idea. In addition to raising the rims, the tactile feel of the rubber would logically be expected to aid in finger placement.

One person you might try contacting is our own Daniel Bingamon of Jubilee Music. He makes some terribly wonderful looking keyed whistles (though of the six hold plus keys variety). But I'd bet you could work with him to add some kind of arthritis friendly paetzhold recorder type keys to a standard whistle -- just sprung metal tabs that ride on a rod attached by posts to the whistle body. Stick some kind of squishy pad-like thingy on the underside and Bob's your elder male relative of choice. Simple concept, though I have no metal working skills to realize it.

Another thing that comes to mind, and won't damage or alter the whistle, is finger cots -- they're thicker than surgical gloves, though they might help you by increasing the surface area of your finger tips. If you're already suffering from loss of sensation, these of course won't help with that. The advantage of cots over surgical gloves is that the gloves are rather close fitting and won't really act as a surrogate pad, because there's nothing actually wrong -- physically -- with your finger tips, whereas cots are thicker and wider and might just help you cover the holes better.

Keep us updated on your progress!

Cheers

[Daniel_Bingamon]

Hello,
Yes, it can be done.

Here's an example:

This above whistle has six normally closed holes (note, one is on the underside) and one normally open hole (over the D tonehole) in order to minimize stretching.
The material is brass that has been sand blasted and clear coated to give it a very different appearance than polished brass.

Now, I've also made some of these with aluminum. I really like the lighter weight of aluminum.
They're lighter than brass and require no soldering.

The keys lay in U shaped key wells which have a hole drilled on one end for the axle of the key.
The springs are obtained from Ferree's tools, you simply drill a 3/64th dia. hole underneath and tap it with a #0-80 screw (small, like that on eyeglasses only they're probably Metric).
The keypad uses 1/16th inch thick closed cell adhesive foam (like that use in speaker enclosures).
You can buy aluminum discs for the keypads on Etsy.
The keys arm is 3/16" square aluminum rod, which is available from MSCdirect.com or specialshapes.com
The keys can be assembled using JB weld. However, if you want to anodize the aluminum for a prettier appearance instead of painting (although anodizing can be expensive, same with plating), you must do that before epoxying the keys together.

This could be done to any whistle if you have the patience to try.
High whistles are a little more difficult since the components are smaller and the curves are tighter.

I've also used conventional springs by using a spring loading bar as mentioned in the previous post on the early LOW-LOW-D basswhistles.

[Chuck_Clark]

Fascinating! A couple of questions occur to me. One is whether the keys materially effect the sound of the whistle. I was recently thinking about why I don't really like wood-plugged conical whistles lie the Clarke Original which is really quite a nice inexpensive instrument. It comes down to my not liking the softer breathiness of the type, preferring the brighter and crisper tone of a a cylindrical tube. Another question concerns the way the keys are pressed (I never played any keyed wind instrument). Is pressure applied with the finger tips or with the second joint like a piper? How difficult would the learning curve be to change techniques?

Still another question. I notice from some flutes that one type of key seems to connect to a hinge bar to the side of the hole(s) and simply work by pressing directly on the pad back. My real major problem is the middle and index fingers of the right hand, i.e the E/F keys. Part of this is due to a slight deformity of the middle finger causing it to bend thumb-ward a little at the last joint. Could keys of this type be added to JUST those two holes? Or does the smaller diameter of the whistle tube prevent such an application?

As ever, thanks to everybody who has replied.