Wilkes keyless: adding keys? trading for keyed?

[juanmcsean]

Hello everyone, I began some time ago this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=96743

I was so lucky that I contacted then Chris Wilkes and he was making some keyless flutes and i was able to reserve one, I only had to wait 3 months!!!
It´s a blackwood, silver tenoned, keyless one. It´s a "rudall style" flute, large bore/holes.

I feel much more more comfortable with it than with the pratten keyless Olwell. My questions:

1) Can you recommend me a good flute maker that can add pin mounted keys to it? Chris Wilkes told me he made the flute with thick enough walls for adding keys to it. My first option would be asking Chris to do it, but he is a bussy man and can not do it by the moment. Would you do it? (let someone else than Chris doing it in one of his flutes)

2) Maybe someone has a Chris Wilkes keyed flute (rudall style, large bore/holes) and he is not using the keys or maybe can just be interested in trading it for a keyless flute + money. Or maybe he is also interested in trading it for a wilkes keyless + Olwell pratten keyless flute. I would only be interested in 8 keyed flutes from the 10 last years and in perfect playing condition.

I really really like my flute, so my very first option would be keeping it with me and I´m not sure at all about getting rid of it, just writing to know my options and to know your opinion about adding keys to it.
Thank you everyone
Juan

Any person interested can contact me here: juanmcsean (at) yahoo (dot) es

[Steampacket]

Did this keyed Wilkes ever sell? viewtopic.php?f=2&t=93457&start=0

It was over a year ago it was on C&F.

[pmcallis]

Hi Juan,
If you decide to add keys to your Wilkes and he is too busy to do the work, I recommend Maurice Reviol in New Zealand. His keywork is fantastic and his prices are fair. I know players who had Reviol retro-fit keys on keyless flutes. All were really pleased with the work. Take a look at his whole web site: (this will take you to some pics in his photo gallery)
http://www.reviol.co.nz/HTML/Thumbnails.html
good luck,
Paul

[jemtheflute]

I'm not at all sure I'd think it a good idea - at least, not unless Chris himself drills the extra holes (not remotely so time-consuming as making and fitting the keys). Also, it will not be cheap. If you really must do it, I'd suggest either Pete Worrell or Dom Allan, both in GB, or perhaps Hammy Hamilton in Ireland.

Another stop-gap idea might be to acquire an antique English 8-keyer of the sort which tend to sell for £200-300 on eBay (unrestored) and cost about the same to do up and have it fitted to your Wilkes head. That would likely cost you about a third of the probable cost of adding all 8 keys to a keyless and would not disrupt Chris's extraordinarily meticulous voicing.

[paddler]

One thing to keep in mind is that adding keys to a keyless flute will change the bore profile and affect the tuning and voicing. Each of the additional keyed tone holes creates a new small cavity in the bore, effectively making the bore diameter at that point a little wider than it was before. Since the choice of bore profile, and careful reamer construction to produce it, seems to be one of the most important determinants of whether a flute is good or great, I would be worried about messing with this.

It does make me wonder whether the top makers even use the same reamer for their keyed and keyless flutes. Or if they do, whether they use some other technique (such as sand paper flaps on a dremel) to cavitate the bore slightly on the keyless flutes where the keyed holes would be on a keyed flute. I think I read about Rod Cameron doing this somewhere.

So, I'd recommend finding a keyed Wilkes (ha ha!), waiting 20 years (ok, not funny any more) or doing something like Jem suggests. I'm sure you'd have no problem selling the keyless Wilkes if you needed to raise money to buy a keyed one the next time one appears.

-- Jon

[pmcallis]

It would be great to have a flute maker give an expert opinion about Jon's ("paddler's") comments above. It's better to make a decision based on the facts/expert opinion instead of "I wonder if...". No offense meant, Jon.
cheers,
Paul

[paddler]

No offense taken. I too would like to hear from some of the makers out there. Of course, they may not want to share all of their secrets!

I should also point out, though, that my comments were not mere baseless speculation. I have spent the last couple of years, or more, doing bore profiles on a lot of antique and modern flutes. I have also made several reamers. I have noticed that the deviations in bore profiles, as compared to a straight taper, are quite small. If these deviations are significant, then the volume added by a tone hole is significant too. And I suspect that they are significant because nobody would go to the trouble of making irregular reamers if they were not (it takes a loooong time to make a good reamer). So I suspect that if makers use the same reamer for keyed and keyless flutes, the difference in actual bore profile (due to the extra holes in the keyed flute) is accounted for in the tuning process. In other words, the main finger holes of a keyless flute would be tuned (undercut etc) slightly differently than they are in a keyed flute. If this is the case, then adding keys to a keyless flute may require retuning of the finger tone holes, and depending on how/where the keyed holes are placed, this may or may not be possible.

So, yes, it would be great to hear from some accomplished makers. I'm trying to become a maker myself, but am only very early in the process.

[Geoffrey Ellis]

It would be great to have a flute maker give an expert opinion about Jon's ("paddler's") comments above. It's better to make a decision based on the facts/expert opinion instead of "I wonder if...". No offense meant, Jon.
cheers,
Paul

I pay close attention to Jon's speculations because they are always well-informed. His understanding of the technicalities of flute making surpasses that of many professional makers and I've often said that he knows enough already to quit his day job and hang his shingle as a maker. He and I have spent a lot of time talking about bores (and measuring them) and manufacturing reamers. He has an amazing database of bore profiles that are in Excel spreadsheets and include graphs to compare the various bores visually. Pretty impressive. He is a bit like E.F. Hutton (remember them?). When he speculates, I sit up and listen.

[jemtheflute]

Jon/Paddler has fleshed out my point, really. I know from direct experience how carefully Chris voices his output. Tiny variations in the bore certainly affect how the flute responds. On the other hand, he doesn't seem to have thrown up his hands in horror at the very idea of adding holes. But I would expect that doing so, whilst it might not ruin what would doubtless still be a very good flute, would most probably change its voicing significantly, and it wouldn't be being re-voiced by himself. I don't think I'd want to risk it.

[Steampacket]

I think Jem and Paddler have made some valid points regarding voicing and bore variations that are well worth paying attention to. Chris says a keyed flute is a ten years or so wait. I would leave the keyless Wilkes as it is and play it.

I'd order a keyed Wilkes, and keep my eye out for a Rudall & Rose or Rudall Carte from an auction house to play, while waiting for Chris to make a keyed flute. Old Rudall flutes are cheaper just now from auction houses than keyed flutes from the most renowned modern makers.

[pmcallis]

This is an interesting discussion. Thanks to Jon, Jem and Geoffrey.

If flute makers will add keys on a keyless flute (Jem says CW will do so as I know Hammy will, etc.):
1. Does this mean makers do not use different reamers for their keyed flutes?
2. How difficult is it to properly re-voice/re-tune a keyless flute that has keys added?
3. In doing so, will there be an 'inevitable' loss in the quality of the flute's sound?

...just asking,
Paul
PS: I hope we are not hi-jacking your thread, Juan.

[juanmcsean]

Hello everybody again.
Thank you for your help. A lot of interesting and useful information here once more.
I don´t really feel like adding keys to the flute if it´s not Chris the man that does it. I think there would be no problem if he does the work, he told that keys could be added.
I imagine maybe there is no big problem if any other good flute maker does it, but I would not be so calmed in this situation. I had already read from reviol and seems like he is good with this. I didn´t know Pete Worrell or Dom Allan. I imagine Hammy hamilton would do also a good work, but i read somewhere that he told that he would need more time with the flute than the time that any owner would want to be without it.
By the moment i´m not in a hurry so i´ll keep thinking about adding keys.
I´ll also keep waiting if anybody is interested in trading flutes or buying original rudall or...
Thank you once more and any other new considerations/information/opinions/solutions will be welcome
Juan

[juanmcsean]

Don´t worry Paul! I just read your new message!
I have a lot of fun with all these "flute universe" discussions
I had looked for information in other threads/webs but this information here is the best i have found about this til the moment, very interesting points here...

[eilam]

Maurice Reviol keyed a flute for me and i absolutely love his work. i could not get a hold of the maker for months(which was my preferred choice) , and am so happy i contacted Maurice, his wonk(meant work ) is amazing and so is his communication skills.

[jemtheflute]

Maurice Reviol keyed a flute for me and i absolutely love his work. i could not get a hold of the maker for months(which was my preferred choice) , and am so happy i contacted Maurice, his wonk is amazing and so is his communication skills.

Gotta have me a wonky flute!