C Unnatural Rolls

[jemtheflute]

Hum. So, kindly define the difference between a turn and a roll, which I would more-or-less take to be synonymous. As for the fingering pattern you suggest, I don't see what's "obvious" about it. It works well enough under the fingers, but the "visit below the core note" element hitting a (veiled, flattened) G (howsoever briefly) sounds really weird - and stands out big time.

Mr Gumby, trying your suggestion gets a kind of cran effect - all departures from the core Cnat are to lower sounds (if I have understood and trialled it correctly). Which is fine and useful, but less roll-like than my suggestions, lacking a visit to a higher sound. I agree about held, pushed Cs being nice, and I wouldn't play rolls on any note every time a potential context for one arose, certainly not through the repetitions of a tune.

One of the points about/advantages of my preferred technique for a C roll is that the L3 or R2 (depending on C nat fingering) tap/"visit above" from C to D is very easy (and can be used on its own). The tricky part comes with the "visit below".

[Steve Bliven]

On my Watson flute, OXO XXX works best for Cnat (for me at least). Using that fingering, does anyone approach a Cnat roll with a C—tongued/breath pulse C—cut C rather than just using finger articulation?

Best wishes.

Steve

[Mr.Gumby]

Mr Gumby, trying your suggestion gets a kind of cran effect

That's not how I have it in mind. More like: this (on whistle)

[jemtheflute]

Mr Gumby, trying your suggestion gets a kind of cran effect

That's not how I have it in mind. More like: this (on whistle)

Ok. Nice effect as you hit it. Involves a visit below first (to whatever pitch is the result of closing L1 in the Cnat fingering you are using), then a visit above to D, so a sort-of reverse roll.

[colomon]

Hum. So, kindly define the difference between a turn and a roll, which I would more-or-less take to be synonymous. As for the fingering pattern you suggest, I don't see what's "obvious" about it. It works well enough under the fingers, but the "visit below the core note" element hitting a (veiled, flattened) G (howsoever briefly) sounds really weird - and stands out big time.

I'd say a (basic) roll is one pitch split into three distinct notes with fingers, usually a cut and a tap. A turn is a five note sequence with distinct notes above and below the center pitch.

[jemtheflute]

OK, Colomon, fair definitions for trad usage, though the boundary between the two might be a bit blurry...... all depends on speed, and rolls in trad are not always at the same speed. I think you can sort-of distinguish a trad roll or turn from a classical one for sure. Trad ones (however composed/achieved) are about rhythm and have different rhythms/rhythmic placement according to their context in a tune, whereas classical ones are simply ornaments of the attached main note, to be played in time according to the conventions of the period of the music in question.

Also, though in trad we often talk/write about the cut and tap not being pitch-specific and being so fast that pitch may not be discernible (and I have taught them/about them in such terms because it is useful so to do), in reality of course they do necessarily have pitch (not necessarily an in-tune specific note, and it may not matter in general terms what pitch). In practice the pitch of a particular cut or tap, however brief, in a particular context, may sit uncomfortably on the ear and another one - different finger(s) - may be to better effect.

[krystlepye]

Mr Gumby, trying your suggestion gets a kind of cran effect

That's not how I have it in mind. More like: this (on whistle)

Ok. Nice effect as you hit it. Involves a visit below first (to whatever pitch is the result of closing L1 in the Cnat fingering you are using), then a visit above to D, so a sort-of reverse roll.

I've been trying to re-learn rolls, because somewhere along the line in my own playing, I started doing just that- a reverse roll! I think I picked it up when I was spending a lot of time noodling on NAFs. I tend to do it on F and G mostly.

[jemtheflute]

To go back to Stu's OP, I looked out The Red Haired Lass. As I had a toot to demo, here's a shot at it. But the setting I found only has one potential begging-for-a-C-roll-place, in the penultimate bar of the B music - and it isn't really all that necessary (Mr Gumby ). There are a couple of other places you could force one in, but by-and-large I wouldn't. (The piccolo I was demonstrating hasn't got the very best intonation, and my embouchure started to fade at the end.)

Have you got dots for the setting you're using, Stu, so we can see the context?

[stanton135]

I interpret (long) roll to mean that you're going to separate a longer note into 3 shorter ones, with a blip of higher pitch and then a blip of lower pitch doing the separating.

For Cnat OXX OOO, I use:
OXX OOX
oxx xxx
OXX OOX
xxx oox
OXX OOX

For Cnat OXX XOX, I use:
OXX XOX
oxx xxx
OXX XOX
xxx xox
OXX XOX

For Cnat OXO XXX, I (would) use:
OXO XXX
oxx xxx
OXO XXX
xxo xxx
OXO XXX

If you don't like it, well, that's how I roll.

[Peter Duggan]

For Cnat OXO XXX, I (would) use:
OXO XXX
oxx xxx
OXO XXX
xxo xxx
OXO XXX

Makes sense to me (though Ben might think the strike occluded?).

[LorenzoFlute]

Maybe I didn't pay enough attention while reading the thread posts, but seems like nobody mentioned the roll with the C natural key...?
You make a B roll while pressing the C natural key, works quite well. If you don't have a C key, get one

[benhall.1]

For Cnat OXO XXX, I (would) use:
OXO XXX
oxx xxx
OXO XXX
xxo xxx
OXO XXX

Makes sense to me (though Ben might think the strike occluded?).

When I do it (and I have tried that one in the past) yes, the strike is "occluded". That is, at least for the way I've managed it, it doesn't make enough noise, but just a sort of 'something' that isn't what I would call blippy enough, if that makes sense.