Big accusation there. You have evidence of this, do you? Apart from your personal opinion? (To be clear, by "evidence" I mean something that would stand up in court.)Steampacket wrote:Ok if a sticky warning people not to send money to Sam, or leave flutes in his workshop isn't on the cards, how about if people who've had flutes and/or money stolen by Sam Murray just post their stories on the Lost/Stolen/Missing Instruments Chiff & Fipple forum, even though we know who the thief is?
Missing Murray
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benhall.1
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Re: Missing Murray
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kkrell
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Re: Missing Murray
NONE of them have asked me back.MTGuru wrote:When you've been around the block as long as Dale has, you're bound to have ticked off an entire nation-state or two along the way. I mean, c'mon, who hasn't?
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Mr.Gumby
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Re: Missing Murray
Well, in all fairness, it's not the first time we discussed how Steampacket left his flute in for repair and never got it back. Personal opinion? Personal experience.Big accusation there. You have evidence of this, do you? Apart from your personal opinion?
I am all against trial by internet and very much dislike it if people who have had no dealings with Sam start piling on here in righteous indignation but Thomas has a case and is a left flute short.
My brain hurts
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Steampacket
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Re: Missing Murray
"Big accusation there. You have evidence of this, do you? Apart from your personal opinion? (To be clear, by "evidence" I mean something that would stand up in court.)" benhall.
Evidence? Yes of course, a witness who was with me when I handed over the flute personally to Sam in his Galway City workshop. E-mails from Sam concerning the flute, One e-mail from Sam requesting 20 euros postage to send the flute back to Sweden. I paid the money into Sam's account, but he still didn't send the flute. As for court, well Sam's in Galway and I'm in Sweden. I had Galway small claims court launched proceedings, but they cannot force the offending party to pay up, if the person doesn't have funds. See the relevant C&F thread - I've moved on, written the flute off, no point in wasting time and energy, and I have better flutes. Just a shame he's still ripping people off.
Evidence? Yes of course, a witness who was with me when I handed over the flute personally to Sam in his Galway City workshop. E-mails from Sam concerning the flute, One e-mail from Sam requesting 20 euros postage to send the flute back to Sweden. I paid the money into Sam's account, but he still didn't send the flute. As for court, well Sam's in Galway and I'm in Sweden. I had Galway small claims court launched proceedings, but they cannot force the offending party to pay up, if the person doesn't have funds. See the relevant C&F thread - I've moved on, written the flute off, no point in wasting time and energy, and I have better flutes. Just a shame he's still ripping people off.
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plunk111
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Re: Missing Murray
Maybe to take this thread in a different direction (and I'm never going to buy a flute from him - for sure!), but has anyone ever had a GOOD experience with Mr Murray? All I've ever heard, and I've been on this board for a while, are bad comments and experiences with him.
Pat
Pat
Pat Plunkett, Wheeling, WV
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Lars Larry Mór Mott
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Re: Missing Murray
I think i have told my story before, but already in the 90's i helped a friend less fluent in English to order a flute from Sam, as far as i can remember, the flute was a bit late but did turn up, and was a good flute.
Fast forward to 2011, i ordered a keyless blackwood flute from Sam, i got a mail just shortly after where he said that due to a change in orders he had a flute almost ready if i was interested.
Well of course i was interested and surprised to get it ahead of schedule, i ended up getting the flute 5 or 6 weeks after ordering it (if memory serves me) in any case i had no problems at all.
Unfortunately i know people personally who hasn't been this lucky, and even those who never got their flutes at all..
Fast forward to 2011, i ordered a keyless blackwood flute from Sam, i got a mail just shortly after where he said that due to a change in orders he had a flute almost ready if i was interested.
Well of course i was interested and surprised to get it ahead of schedule, i ended up getting the flute 5 or 6 weeks after ordering it (if memory serves me) in any case i had no problems at all.
Unfortunately i know people personally who hasn't been this lucky, and even those who never got their flutes at all..
the artist formerly known as Mr_Blackwood
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Mr.Gumby
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Re: Missing Murray
I have posted my own experiences here a few times but the nature of these threads is such (and that's why I so dislike them) that they are completely ignored, overlooked or forgotten about. Many people have had good experiences dealing with Sam. Unfortunately he seems to have hit a bad patch in recent years. I am not in any way suggesting this should be ignored but trial by internet, with people who have had no dealings with him sticking their oar in and joining the mob, that's not going to achieve anything.has anyone ever had a GOOD experience with Mr Murray? All I've ever heard, and I've been on this board for a while, are bad comments and experiences with him.
My brain hurts
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benhall.1
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Re: Missing Murray
Yes, I know that (and the following posts). But it's one thing to say "I've been left a flute short" and quite another to say "X is a thief" as Steampacket has. It isn't only being left a flute short that would need to be proved for that. And we're not talking about an accusation in civil law there, but a criminal one. I'm not comfortable with that.Mr.Gumby wrote:Well, in all fairness, it's not the first time we discussed how Steampacket left his flute in for repair and never got it back. Personal opinion? Personal experience.Big accusation there. You have evidence of this, do you? Apart from your personal opinion?
I am all against trial by internet and very much dislike it if people who have had no dealings with Sam start piling on here in righteous indignation but Thomas has a case and is a left flute short.
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kmag
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Re: Missing Murray
As difficult as this is for everyone involved I have to agree with Ben on this. The difference, as I see it, is matter of intent. I really don't think Sam did any of this with a preconceived intent to never get a flute to the people involved. That doesn't change the fact that flutes have been paid for and never arrived. Does he lose the repairs? Lose track of orders? I can't say but I don't think it is intentional and that is what would have to be proved for him to be accused of stealing. I believe he is scattered and on bad times, perhaps borrowed time for all we know. I would suffice to say that I would not order a flute from him unless I knew him personally at this point which is a shame. He has enjoyed a reputation as a top maker.
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an seanduine
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Re: Missing Murray
Perhaps there is an elephant in the room here?http://irishamerica.com/2012/01/breakin ... and-drink/
Bob
Bob
Not everything you can count, counts. And not everything that counts, can be counted
The Expert's Mind has few possibilities.
The Beginner's mind has endless possibilities.
Shunryu Suzuki, Roshi
The Expert's Mind has few possibilities.
The Beginner's mind has endless possibilities.
Shunryu Suzuki, Roshi
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benhall.1
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Re: Missing Murray
2 things:an seanduine wrote:Perhaps there is an elephant in the room here?http://irishamerica.com/2012/01/breakin ... and-drink/
Bob
1) Speculation, wild
2) I don't think you're right in this case
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psychodonald
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Re: Missing Murray
Just an observation. It is impossible to know a persons "intent" unless that person is willing to communicate; in the absence of that communication all else is speculation and assumption. It is clear that Mr. Murray is either unwilling to let people know what is going on, or unable, or perhaps both.
If I were one of the persons who had paid for a flute, or sent a flute back for repairs, and didn't receive the flute or some reasonable explanation as to why the flute, or a refund or compensation was not forthcoming, I would be very upset, and I feel with proper justification. Frankly, I admire those who have found themselves in this unfortunate situation, and have come to the recognition that it is futile to continue to be upset and not dwell any longer on the disappointment and frustration that they must have experienced. I admire them only because I don't think I could be that gracious, absent any reasonable explanation by Mr. Murray or his representative.
At this juncture, Steampacket's assumptions/ speculations are just as valid as anyone elses.
If I were one of the persons who had paid for a flute, or sent a flute back for repairs, and didn't receive the flute or some reasonable explanation as to why the flute, or a refund or compensation was not forthcoming, I would be very upset, and I feel with proper justification. Frankly, I admire those who have found themselves in this unfortunate situation, and have come to the recognition that it is futile to continue to be upset and not dwell any longer on the disappointment and frustration that they must have experienced. I admire them only because I don't think I could be that gracious, absent any reasonable explanation by Mr. Murray or his representative.
At this juncture, Steampacket's assumptions/ speculations are just as valid as anyone elses.
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Akiba
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Re: Missing Murray
Class action lawsuit? All those who had a flute or money taken could band together and...
Re: Missing Murray
Ounce of prevention.....
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Sirchronique
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Re: Missing Murray
Akiba wrote:Class action lawsuit? All those who had a flute or money taken could band together and...
That's what I was thinking. I don't understand how a person can't be sent to trial and charged with a crime if they have done this as often as reports on here would seem to indicate. How can the law really do nothing if there's such a large amount of complaints? Is it really that easy to simply take money and not supply what the person paid for, multiple times, and never have to answer for it legally?