Bore question.

[dow]

Question from the uninformed:
What's the difference between wide and narrow bore chanters (other than the fact that one is wider than the other)?

Thanks.

[benhall.1]

Whistle makers will be the best people to answer this, but I can give my own impression from the point of view of a player who owns both narrow bore and wide bore whistles.

The wider bore whistles tend to be louder, have a bassier tone (either more mellow or harder depending on other things about the making of that particular whistle), and be slightly harder to play at the top of the upper octave. Narrow bore whistles tend to have a more trebly, smoother, birdlike tone which is quieter and easier to play in the second octave.

All of that, though, can be affected by the precise shape of the window and other design aspects which affect the 'voicing' of the whistle. About those, I know nothing.

Not much to go on, perhaps, but it might start the ball rolling in any case.

[benhall.1]

Dammit! Overtired. I got the forum wrong AND misread the question . Ah well ... does any of that apply to chanters?

[MTGuru]

I hate boring chanters. Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, nam-myoho-renge-kyo, on and on and on ...

Damn, I misread the question too!

[ Ben is very jet lagged and deserves a poke. Now back to your thread in progress. ]

[geoff wooff]

Woodwind instruments will have similarities to your description of whistles ,Benhall. Comparisons could also be made with Brass instruments.... compare the sound of a Trumpet with a Cornet.... Cornet has a narrower bore.

When I played in the School Brass band I started with an old Trombone.... the Bandmaster called it "the Peashooter" because it had a smaller diameter bore than the new models played by the more senior students. The sound was quite different, quieter more intimate and easier to play Pianissimo. The Big Bore Trombones had a much fuller tone and great warmth.

However, if you look at the much earlier principles of the inventors of the Oboe ( the closest relative to the UP Chanter) where they started to control the playability of the Shawn ( a wild/loud bagpipe chanter type of thing) by narrowing the bore and discovering how the new bore shape allowed access to the upper 'TWO' octaves.

By using a wider bore for their pipe chanters the late 19th/early 20th century makers were able to produce a louder instrument more suitable to the Stage performance or the Ceilhi Band.

The différences are: the wide bore types will be less easy to control in the upper octave, have more Fundamental in the sound Spectrum and less Harmonic ( upper partial) strength. The Wide bores will have larger finger holes, louder notes but less control over the dynamics of the notes.

The Narrow bore chanters with their smaller note holes can control the tone colour of notes more easily because these small holes can act better as harmonic filters.... open one hole and you get 'hmmm' open a second and you get 'Ahhhh' open a third or a different second hole and you can get 'OUUUU'. Thus a more Vocal approach to playing can be taken and several degrees of tone/loudness can be made for many of the notes. Can be much more expressive BUT because most pipers today have learned to play on the Wide Bore Concert Pitched pipes they tend not to develope these vocal characteristics when they move to the Flat sets with narrow bores.

As a finger hole approaches the size of the bore diameter at the point of its placement then the affect is as if the pipe has been cut off at that point SO.... the sound out of a hole that equalls the bore diameter will be closer in tone to a note that exits the bore at its end. So, with very big holes all notes will sound like Bottom D's.... Take the example of the modern Metal Flute where all the principle holes are the size of the bore... the inventor's idea was to provide the flautist with a set of equal voiced tones throughout the instrument.

Now the wide bore chanters are not like the modern orchestral flute and the narrow bore chanters do not have infinate control over the harmonic content and there are many variants in between depending on the Maker but if you wish your chanter to sing then go for a narrower bore, if you wish your chanter to shout, go for the wider bore.

Hope this is what you are looking for,
Geoff.

PS: I should emphasise the point that a Bagpipe is a single volume instrument, once you have set the loudness you are stuck with it, you cannot play more quietly or more loudly without resetting all your reeds.... this is why I am an advocate of the Narrow Bore types where greater dynamic control of the melody is possible and why I see the move to Wide Bore as a step in the wrong direction.

[rorybbellows]

Narrow bore instruments are great for beginners because as Benidict Koelar remarked its easier to sound pleasant with NB chanters. Some beginners may be put off wide bore chanters at the start because they have trouble getting them to sound musical, but this could be helped with a chanter fitted with a softer sounding more forgiving reed. But the truly great thing about WB in this respect is the depth of learning and discovery that comes with playing the instrument over your long term playing career.(WB is for life,NB is for Christmas) The more you put into it ,the more WB gives you.I remember listening to an interview of Mark Knofler and his insightful comments on the sound of Liam O'Flynn's Rowsome chanter. He remarked that each note had almost a separate character that blended together well, like members of a close knit musical family .
It think when choosing what instrument you want to play you have to decide which is best suited to your idea of the music you want to play, which is really then a reflection of you character .If you’re a shy ,timid person who lacks confidence in their playing and only likes to play in your bedroom with the curtains drawn ,or you may be a selfish person who doesn’t like to share your music, then NB is for you.If you’re a well adjusted friendly kind of person you will find the bright joyful tones of wide bore chanters more to your liking.

RORY

[Lorenzo]

The différences are: the wide bore types will be less easy to control in the upper octave, have more Fundamental in the sound Spectrum and less Harmonic ( upper partial) strength. The Wide bores will have larger finger holes, louder notes but less control over the dynamics of the notes.

The Narrow bore chanters with their smaller note holes can control the tone colour of notes more easily because these small holes can act better as harmonic filters.... open one hole and you get 'hmmm' open a second and you get 'Ahhhh' open a third or a different second hole and you can get 'OUUUU'. Thus a more Vocal approach to playing can be taken and several degrees of tone/loudness can be made for many of the notes. Can be much more expressive BUT because most pipers today have learned to play on the Wide Bore Concert Pitched pipes they tend not to develope these vocal characteristics when they move to the Flat sets with narrow bores.

Excellent! As I was playing with those three "tone colours" the other day, and trying to learn (relearn) the correct fingerings on the chanter to bring out the right tone at the right time, I could hear exactly the colours you are talking about, but didn't know quite how to describe them.

Not all flat sets are equal. My C chanter was a medium bore and couldn't express the tones you describe, so I went back to a B narrow bore. Some C chanters do have it though. And by the way, not all chanter reeds will express the tone colours either. My B reed wouldn't do it until I took that crazy wire bridle off that was choking the life out of it, and replaced it with a traditional one that only touches the sides, and allows the reed to resonate all the way through. What a difference!

As you can see, at least one piper's brain has been so severely affected by years of "WB" abuse, it doesn't understand what you are talking about. But thankfully, this means all the more narrow bore (flat) sets available for those who do!

Thanks for your insight!

[mke_mick]

Geoff has very usefully described the general differences and trade-offs between narrow bore and wide bore uilleann chanters. I'll only add that any decent uilleann chanter can produce a range of tonal and expressive effects, even from note to note. A given narrow-bore chanter may have (OK, probably has ) a wider range of colors and effects available on more of its notes than a given wide-bore chanter does. But that doesn't mean the wide-bore chanter isn't capable of beautiful, nuanced, and expressive playing.

For my money, the deep kung fu in uilleann pipering isn't just being able to play really fast or really staccato; it's mastering the full possibilities of your chanter, and knowing how to use its particular capabilities most effectively.

(P.S. Though I mostly play and enjoy an exuberant wide-bore concert set -- an especially fun instrument for ensemble/session playing -- I love flat sets too. What Seamus Ennis did with his Coyne C# set remains, for me, the gold standard of what I wish I could make pipes sound like. So, I also log plenty of happy hours on my quiet, very vocalistic C# set. Why choose?)

Regards,
Mick

[rorybbellows]

As I was playing with those three "tone colours" the other day

Of course narrow bore D chanters have another tone colour,it's ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz.

RORY

[geoff wooff]

Not all chanters are created equal and this applies to reeds too, of course. Yes some chanters have better tonal control and not all Narrow Bore chanters have this feature in abundance and some WB's have good amounts of it.

There are Narrow Bore D chanters that are tonally dead but a good one is a wonderfull thing...I assume that Mr. Bellows has never experienced one of the well endowed examples. A fine piper has been playing an NBD for many years for Gig sessions in Doolin and the 'other' musicians were very happy that this instrument did not shout at them but balanced well with fiddle and flute.

Of course if you have to play with Accordions and Banjos then perhaps you want the Loud Pipes.

The quality of the available nuances in a chanter are a function of the way it and its reeds are made.

[dow]

The différences are: the wide bore types will be less easy to control in the upper octave, have more Fundamental in the sound Spectrum and less Harmonic ( upper partial) strength. The Wide bores will have larger finger holes, louder notes but less control over the dynamics of the notes.

The Narrow bore chanters with their smaller note holes can control the tone colour of notes more easily because these small holes can act better as harmonic filters.... open one hole and you get 'hmmm' open a second and you get 'Ahhhh' open a third or a different second hole and you can get 'OUUUU'. Thus a more Vocal approach to playing can be taken and several degrees of tone/loudness can be made for many of the notes. Can be much more expressive...

...Now the wide bore chanters are not like the modern orchestral flute and the narrow bore chanters do not have infinate control over the harmonic content and there are many variants in between depending on the Maker but if you wish your chanter to sing then go for a narrower bore, if you wish your chanter to shout, go for the wider bore.

Hope this is what you are looking for,
Geoff.

PS: I should emphasise the point that a Bagpipe is a single volume instrument, once you have set the loudness you are stuck with it, you cannot play more quietly or more loudly without resetting all your reeds.... this is why I am an advocate of the Narrow Bore types where greater dynamic control of the melody is possible and why I see the move to Wide Bore as a step in the wrong direction.

This is indeed what I am looking for, Geoff. Thanks so much for your description and comparison to old versus current designs in band instruments, as that is where a great deal of my background lies.

If it's not too much to ask, which makers make narrow bore chanters in D that aren't too dear pricewise? As I hope to get a practice set sometime in the next year (budget and wife allowing, ha ha), it'd be good, both for me and for continued marital bliss, for me to have the possibility of singing rather than shouting.

Thanks again!

[Mr.Gumby]

You may want to look at previous discussions, I remember Narrow Bore D examples but that's just one of many.

There are just too many caveats and variables, not all pipes are created equally. Some makers will turn out a narrow bore to just make it more quiet (or just plain dull) and at the other end of the spectrum there will be sets that reproduce the tonal spectrum and flexibility of a true flat set.

There's really no viable alternative to hearing a set played in the flesh when deciding what will suit you, or what will line up with the aural image of your ideal pipes.

Wanting all the benefits of a well made and well set up chanter for the lowest price, well, there's wishful thinking for you.

[Sam L]

Well, I just happened to be working on a narrow D when I read this latest thread. I concur with a lot of what has been said, and it is interesting that Geoff touched upon the size of the holes, as this current chanter in front of me has a 3.69 throat but has slightly larger than normal holes - the customer originally ordered a concert chanter, DHL smashed that to bits, he decided he would rather a narrow bore D, I decided for him that he might want one that leant slightly towards concert. The chanter still has plently of colour, but is able to compete with my large bore concert drones.

I think they - narrow D chanters generally if well designed and voiced - are super; great for not drowning out fiddles, as said, and great to learn on.

This below is the recording of it I just made on my phone. Please excuse my playing as I was previously playing a B chanter for some time and I am still missing the holes occasionally. I mainly post this to refute Rory saying that narrow D means Zzzzzzzz.

http://www.hunterpipes.co.uk/Sounds/fra ... ow%20d.wav

[dow]

You may want to look at previous discussions, I remember Narrow Bore D examples but that's just one of many.

I have done some searching, just thought I'd ask outright this time.

There are just too many caveats and variables, not all pipes are created equally. Some makers will turn out a narrow bore to just make it more quiet (or just plain dull) and at the other end of the spectrum there will be sets that reproduce the tonal spectrum and flexibility of a true flat set.

That "other end of the spectrum" sounds like what I'm looking for.

There's really no viable alternative to hearing a set played in the flesh when deciding what will suit you, or what will line up with the aural image of your ideal pipes.

I'm aware of that, and I really wish that such a thing were possible, but at this time and in this place, it's just not feasible, for several reasons. It must be a fine thing to live where you can go hear and play a variety of diffeen't maker's sets. It's funny, according to the last census, the greater San Antonio area has a population of about 2-1/4 million, and to the best of my knowledge, there is only one regular session going on, and that one without any pipers. I used to be a regular there, but work and family take precedence.

Wanting all the benefits of a well made and well set up chanter for the lowest price, well, there's wishful thinking for you.

Ah, but I can dream, can't I?

[BigDavy]

I am surprised that no one has made the obvious suggestion yet - if you want a chanter with flat pitch characteristics, then buy a flat pitch chanter.

David