Good enough for folk music but...

A forum about Uilleann (Irish) pipes and the surly people who play them.
User avatar
MTGuru
Posts: 18663
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:45 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Good enough for folk music but...

Post by MTGuru »

Pyroh wrote:
Squeeky Elf wrote:Just give them the pure drop. Feck 'em if they can't take it.
Yes, that will make appreciation of uilleann pipes higher...
The irony being that JI pipes are arguably better in tune than the 12TET you're expected to accommodate for appreciation by audiences who are so "earwashed" by 12TET that they don't know the difference.

It's a real educational opportunity missed. OTOH, I suppose that starting an orchestral performance with a 10 minute lecture on tunings and temperaments wouldn't exactly be popular ...

[ And I speak as one of the earwashed - a 12TET baby who perceives JI as out of tune without a period of aural re-adjustment. ]
Vivat diabolus in musica! MTGuru's (old) GG Clips / Blackbird Clips

Joel Barish: Is there any risk of brain damage?
Dr. Mierzwiak: Well, technically speaking, the procedure is brain damage.
TheSilverSpear
Posts: 518
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:25 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: Piping Curmudgeon-land

Re: Good enough for folk music but...

Post by TheSilverSpear »

@ ChasR, Yes it is indeed that Healing Light Celtic Prayer thingy. Well guessed. Not the sort of thing I would normally go for, but I am an unemployed PhD grad and they are paying me, so needs must.

@john, it's in Lanark at the end of April. Am I still who you think I am? LOL.

@Cathy, my off-the-knee hard E is awesome. I think so. But I think people with better tuning sensibilities than me might disagree.
User avatar
CHasR
Posts: 2464
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:48 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: canned tuna-aisle 6

Re: Good enough for folk music but...

Post by CHasR »

TheSilverSpear wrote: but I am an unemployed PhD grad and they are paying me, so needs must.
cool! I hope youre soaking them ! :D After all this is a rare skill indeed!
Perhaps ive gone on too much here, :( sorry, but i disagree that its a temperament issue at all. If the E & A are on pitch, Just go with the flow and tune on the fly to everyone else. [thats what every single musician onstage will be doing also, except for the conductor, keyboard, harp, marimba, & cymbals.] A couple rehearsals and it will become 2nd nature where to sharp or flat, on or off knee, ease pressure, lay into the bag as necessary. Wish I could go to the show, which im sure will be awesome. GOOD LUCK "The Silver Spear" :thumbsup:
And remember every orchestra is like a backwards bull...horns in the rear,,
User avatar
Cathy Wilde
Posts: 5591
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2003 4:17 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: Somewhere Off-Topic, probably

Re: Good enough for folk music but...

Post by Cathy Wilde »

In my experience doing these things, the tuning of the orchestra can be pretty random too, especially as the performance goes on and the room heats up. I've played with some church and community orchestras that make my pipes sound like the only in-tune thing in the room!

I think all you can do is your best ... adjust your reeds & tape your toneholes accordingly in practice, and then on the day of the performance get there early, tune the pipes in the room, and pray to The Gods of Uill Winds that the climate doesn't change too dramatically once the room is full of hot sweaty exhaling people (in the past I've tuned a few cents sharp with that in mind). And, like Skipjam (I can only dream of playing as in-tune as he does) says, work the bag pressure. Sure, pipes are a folk instrument but playing with orchestras is fun, and the pipes can add such nice color and texture. Fingers crossed for ya!
Deja Fu: The sense that somewhere, somehow, you've been kicked in the head exactly like this before.
User avatar
john
Posts: 854
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2002 6:00 pm

Re: Good enough for folk music but...

Post by john »

lanark's in scotland isn't it? - i thought thesilverspear was a piper i'd met at the london club but maybe i was wrong
User avatar
Squeeky Elf
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 11:50 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10

Re: Good enough for folk music but...

Post by Squeeky Elf »

Accept no imitations...
“Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes.”
TheSilverSpear
Posts: 518
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:25 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: Piping Curmudgeon-land

Re: Good enough for folk music but...

Post by TheSilverSpear »

I was hanging around London back in 2006 into early 2007 but haven't since. If it was then, it could have been me. If not, it would be unlikely. :)
User avatar
An Draighean
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:18 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: Parker County, Texas, USA

Re: Good enough for folk music but...

Post by An Draighean »

john wrote:lanark's in Scotland isn't it?
Aye, in South Lanarkshire, as a matter of fact. The mrs. and I had our wedding reception and started our honeymoon at the Rosebank Hotel in Lanark 35 years ago.
Deartháir don phaidir an port.
TheSilverSpear
Posts: 518
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:25 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: Piping Curmudgeon-land

Re: Good enough for folk music but...

Post by TheSilverSpear »

Myself and Mr. Spear also got married in Lanark, at their lovely council offices. They were happy for us to book ourselves in with two weeks' notice, unlike the Glasgow council offices, which needed more time. Thank you, Theresa May and the Home Office and your helpful, friendly, welcoming, and (very quickly) changing visa rules.
User avatar
pancelticpiper
Posts: 5322
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:25 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Playing Scottish and Irish music in California for 45 years.
These days many discussions are migrating to Facebook but I prefer the online chat forum format.
Location: WV to the OC

Re: Good enough for folk music but...

Post by pancelticpiper »

TheSilverSpear wrote:
The piece in question doesn't go higher than the back D or lower than the bottom E. You spend a lot of time hanging around on the E.
Ah, that's easy then! Just put tape on that E so it's right in tune (I'm guessing that your Low E is sharp, they often are on the pipes).

About Davey Spillane or Eric Rigler or Jerry O Sullivan or any other piper that does a lot of non-trad gigs, no, you don't have to avoid E, you just have to learn how to play it in tune in both octaves, which for me means having it tuned in the middle so that I can give it a little boost in the 2nd octave and back off in the 1st octave, or shade it if necessary. I don't know how those other guys do it, but they have no trouble playing E for five bars or fifty bars exactly in tune.

It's far easier, for studio gigs, if the piece only has E in one of the two octaves, so that I can get it exactly in tune with normal pressure and not have to worry about it. If E is a prominent note in both octaves it requires much care to get them all right. It's just practice, doing it a lot.

I had one studio gig where I was faced with a double issue: the composer had written a tune that had lots of big E's in both octaves, and in addition he didn't want me to do any of the typical uilleann expressive devices: he didn't want me to bend notes, or play vibrato (both things that can help getting certain notes to sound in tune). No, he wanted plain straight pure notes. I did it, but I had to 'shade' every low E and 'blow out' every single high E. In the end I got some 'takes' where all the E's were perfect; however I still thought it would have sounded much better had I been allowed to bend notes and play vibrato.
Richard Cook
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
User avatar
pancelticpiper
Posts: 5322
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:25 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Playing Scottish and Irish music in California for 45 years.
These days many discussions are migrating to Facebook but I prefer the online chat forum format.
Location: WV to the OC

Re: Good enough for folk music but...

Post by pancelticpiper »

Cathy Wilde wrote:In my experience doing these things, the tuning of the orchestra can be pretty random too, especially as the performance goes on and the room heats up. I've played with some church and community orchestras that make my pipes sound like the only in-tune thing in the room!
Yes indeed, I've played at things like that, for example weddings or wedding receptions where they have a string quartet playing outside in the damp cold and all their instruments are going wonky and they're struggling the entire time to play in tune.

But I would NEVER use that as an excuse for ME not being in tune! I take great pride in always being as in-tune as possible. As I've said, the quickest way to gain the respect of all the 'legit' players in the room is to play in tune. They all hear it! Likewise the quickest way to lose their respect is to be out of tune.
Cathy Wilde wrote: I think all you can do is your best ... adjust your reeds & tape your toneholes accordingly in practice, and then on the day of the performance get there early, tune the pipes in the room, and pray to The Gods of Uill Winds that the climate doesn't change too dramatically once the room is full of hot sweaty exhaling people (in the past I've tuned a few cents sharp with that in mind). And, like Skipjam (I can only dream of playing as in-tune as he does) says, work the bag pressure. Sure, pipes are a folk instrument but playing with orchestras is fun, and the pipes can add such nice color and texture.
Good advice!

Sometimes there's not much you can do though... there was one gig, a very expensive wedding in a fancy huge ballroom overlooking the Pacific ocean, for which they had hired a little 'classical' ensemble with strings and what not. I was hired to play Highland Cathedral. (I tried to explain to them that HC was a GHB tune and wouldn't sound the same on the uilleann pipes, but to them 'bagpipes are bagpipes'.)

So for the rehearsal beforehand we're in this room with the air conditioning set on Fargo and my pipes are very flat. I had been out to the actual ballroom and it's temp was normal. I explained to the band leader that my pipes would be very flat in this cold room, that I could move reed and tape and bring it up, but then I would be very sharp in the ballroom. He said "make it in tune now" so I did.

Then I had just a couple minutes between the time our rehearsal ended and we had to go out and play to move my reed back where it was.

Out in the ballroom all was well! The entire ocean-side of the room was huge glass walls/windows, which were open, and a lovely coolish sea breeze was coming in, and my pipes were happy.

BUT THEN... they shut all those windows and it was The Greenhouse Effect and the temp shot up maybe 20 degrees.

My big solo is coming up, I only have maybe two or three minutes... I can't go anywhere to check, I'm sitting with the group and the violins are playing their thing. I was torn between moving my reed up, guessing on where to set it, to try to flatten the chanter, or just leaving it and hoping against hope that I'm not too sharp.

I did the latter, a mistake! Because I was sharp. Oh well, you can just do what you can do, and live and learn.
Richard Cook
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
User avatar
tommykleen
Posts: 1686
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I am interested in the uilleann pipes and their typical -and broader- use. I have been composing and arranging for the instrument lately. I enjoy unusual harmonic combinations on the pipes. I use the pipes to play music of other cultures.
Location: Minnesota, Birthplace of the pop-up toaster
Contact:

Re: Good enough for folk music but...

Post by tommykleen »

And if you tape your E, try taping the bottom of the hole...which is contrary to the other notes and goes against intuition. For some reason the bottom-up taping on that note yields better results. :-?
Tommykleen
Well, don't forget to make music.
Post Reply