Good enough for folk music but...

[TheSilverSpear]

I've got a gig playing with a choir and a classical orchestra (the jury is still out on whether this was a good idea or not) and did my first rehearsal with the choir tonight. Choir director thought the tuning of the pipes was interesting. He'd not heard pipes before. They're fine for sessions and ceilidhs but playing with the piano, the Es and, to a lesser extent, the Bs were certainly interesting. I could tape holes. Is that the best thing to do? Or explain just temperament and tell them to deal with it. It's not like I'm going to get a reed made in the next few weeks that is a lot better than the ones I got.

He thinks I have a lot of control over the tuning like people who play normal instruments do. Hahahahahahahahah.

[MTGuru]

I'd say it really depends on the music. If you're playing solo passages over orchestral and choral accompaniment, that should be fine since orchestras and choirs don't play/sing in strict 12TET or JI (or strict anything, really). They need to accommodate you - assuming your pipes are not actually out of tune. If the choir is used to performing variously with piano or orchestra, they should understand what's needed. If there's a lot of interaction between just pipes and piano, then what you hear is what you get. The discrepancies are the sound of that combination.

I remember seeing a program a while back discussing the evolution of Balkan music as ET instruments (accordions, keyboards) crept into the canonical instrumentarium, and the mixed intonation came to be regarded as a positive characteristic.

You might contact Ben Jaber (Hornpiper here on the board). As both a superb uilleann piper and the first chair French hornist with the San Diego Symphony, he has unique insight into pipes + orchestra issues. Good luck!

[an seanduine]

MTGuru wrote:

since orchestras and choirs don't play/sing in strict 12TET or JI (or strict anything, really).

Reminds me that our College Music Prof called it "consensus tuning. . ." What he really didn't like is when the various sections couldn't reach an overall
consensus
As I recall, Liam O'Flynn was taped up all over when he did the Brendan Voyage. This should be a learning experience for everyone!
Good Luck!

Bob

[CHasR]

Its been my experience that 99 out of 100 choral conductors know absolutely nothing about temperament.

Instrumental conductors will *completely* understand your issues, (even if they dont know pipes very well) AND ALSO give you decent cues & cutoffs.

Choral conductors will do NEITHER.

I am lmfao at the ridiculousness of some of the cutoffs ive been given by Choral conductors: looks exactly like a windup monkey that got stuck just before the cymbals crashed, thus:



"uhh....Bagpipe, that was your cutoff..." "Oh, ok."

Here;s my advice fwiw: Brass it out. Do what you have to do with Nietzschean gravitas. Look the conductor --->>straight in his/her beady little eyes, let them think you are giving them exactly what they want, move with them, breathe with them if need be, and let the beauty of your chanter tone do the rest. There wont be a dry seat in the house, guaranteed

Dont let the cond. think for a moment that you're unsure, or that anythings wrong in the least. Every piper that watches the resulting video will be on your side. The only other ones who will either notice/care about your tuning issues will be the oboe & strings, and really: who are they to complain?????

[benhall.1]

Have you tested your chanter against a tuner set in JI, Emily? I ask because, from memory, your chanter is out in any case. It's not so much that it stands out particularly in a session, but it will against a piano. I think it would be worth testing to see where the tuning actually is - I know you assume that it's JI but, as I say, I think in reality it's out of tune in any case - and then work from there. I think this could be a good learning experience.

Not that I know anything about pipes, but do you use rushes and stuff? Or, yes, maybe tape is the answer.

[MTGuru]

maybe tape is the answer.

Yes, tape ... a tape recording of someone playing the pipes in tune.

Oh wait ... There is no such thing.

[Elmek]

Taping the holes will make them flatter unless you make the whole chanter play sharp to get the B and E in tune and then tape all the other notes to flatten them

The maker of my pipes regularly plays in a church choir and he may be able to help - check your pm's

John

[TheSilverSpear]

My electronic gizmo told me this morning, sitting in my house, that all the notes on the chanter are in tune. Even the E, which I was sure would be out. But the doodad says it isn't. It sounded really out against the piano.

I have a different reed (two reeds, one civilized for playing in the house and one loud for sessions) than I had when you saw me, Ben. Probably got it not long after, as the reed I'd been playing for a few years at that point was busy trying to die.

[Calum]

Temp/humidity differences? I can see swings of 10Hz or so overall with temperature on GHB and I can't imagine Uilleann pipes are less sensitive.

[TheSilverSpear]

Could be. It was about 30 C in the room that the choir was rehearsing in. That won't do anything good for your tuning.

[pancelticpiper]

I do a lot of these 'legit' (that is, non-trad) gigs.

If you're going to do them, do them as well as possible, which means playing by their rules, which means playing 'in tune' to their sensibilities, which means Equal Temperament.

If you show up and play in tune you'll immediately gain everyone's respect.

Playing 'in tune' is situational, and if your job is to play with the choir, you must be in tune to ET. Playing out of tune is simply playing out of tune, and there's no use trying to explain it away.

My uilleann chanter is, and has been for over 20 years, strictly tuned to ET. All it means is doing whatever you need to do to make sure that that darn little needle points straight up on every note.

On my chanter both D's, both F#s', and both G's are exactly in tune.

The trouble comes mainly with E and B, because on early all Concert Pitch uilleann chanters there's an octave separation with those notes.

For E the separation is around 10 cents on my chanter (the 1st octave higher). This means I can:

1) have E in tune at normal pressure in the 1st octave, putting it flat in the 2nd octave, and really 'pushing' the note up to pitch with the bag, or
2) have the E in tune at normal pressure in the 2nd octave, putting it sharp in the 1st octave, and 'shading' the note with the two raised lowerhand fingers, or
3) have the E tuned in the middle, so that it requires a small pressure boost in the 2nd octave, and backing off the pressure and/or shading the note slightly in the 1st octave.

I normally do #3 just because it's easier.

For B the separation can be 10 cents or with some reeds and chanters as much as 30 to 50 cents (2nd octave higher).

On my chanter I have 1st octave B perfectly in tune to ET and try to avoid playing the 2nd octave B if I can, due to it being sharp (around 10 cents on my chanter). If I do need to play high B I shade it with the finger to try to control the pitch, very tricky. I would really like to have a High B key on my chanter, placed just where the High C key is, to play an easy perfectly in tune 2nd octave B.

For the gigs I so I bring a C chanter (for C Major and F Major) and a D chanter (for D Major and G Major) and that usually covers most of the music.

You also have to be aware of changing temperatures and how it affects your tuning. I use a Snark clip-on electronic tuner (which feels the vibration of the chanter) so that I can monitor my tuning while playing onstage and make adjustments if necessary as the concert goes along.

Good luck!

PS here's what an uilleann chanter tuned ET sounds like

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onGGxt19ksg

[benhall.1]

My electronic gizmo told me this morning, sitting in my house, that all the notes on the chanter are in tune. Even the E, which I was sure would be out. But the doodad says it isn't. It sounded really out against the piano.

I have a different reed (two reeds, one civilized for playing in the house and one loud for sessions) than I had when you saw me, Ben. Probably got it not long after, as the reed I'd been playing for a few years at that point was busy trying to die.

Ah. Different reeds, different tuning. Difficult things, these pipe thingies.

[TheSilverSpear]

Cheers, Richard.

The piece in question doesn't go higher than the back D or lower than the bottom E. You spend a lot of time hanging around on the E. The writer of the piece obviously didn't know the pipes well, or he would have written it in D since the E is just about the worst note on the chanter to be trying to play with a piano and orchestra. It was written for Davy Spillane, mind, who does enough non-trad stuff that he probably can get his pipes in ET, but the rest of us mortals.... Even so, there is a part where the sheet music has you playing a long E for about five bars, but on the recording, not even Davy does that -- he plays some kind of harmony thing that isn't in the written music, probably for good reason!

Can I get my E to be in ET with tape? The B is also a bit out with the piano, but not as flagrantly so as the E.

You're playing is lovely, Richard, but I have to admit, the ET chanter sounds a bit odd and unpipey. I don't want to sound like that all the time. Just for the twenty bars needed for this gig!

[benhall.1]

I'm still confused overall Emily. You say you've checked the tuning, right? Presumably against a tuner set to JI. Is the bottom D in tune? And is the E also in tune? Because, for those two notes, there shouldn't be much difference (hardly noticeable, I would have thought) between the D-E interval in JI and that in ET. Or am I confusing which particular form of JI is being used here? In other words, which is the interval used for D-E - is it the big JI whole tone or the little one? If it's the one that's flat to ET, then yes, it would be miles out. I thought it was the other one though, ie the big tone, in which case it's very close to ET. Just 4 cents sharp of ET.

So what I'm thinking is that if you check your D against a tuner in JI and also your E, then, provided your overall pitch is the same as the piano, it should be OK, more or less. Now, the B is a different story altogether, and that one I can imagine being noticeably out.

[Mr.Gumby]

if your job is to play with the choir, you must be in tune to ET

I would suggest a choir of good singers under a capable choir master is not likely to sing in ET but will instinctively sweeten their harmonies. They wouldn't sound very nice if they didn't.