Bass D whistle WITHOUT KEYS! And beyond?

[Feadoggie]

Having had a bit more of a think about this, I looked back at bassoon construction techniques. I think that at least one hole on a bassoon has an artificially extened length. Although it could be argued that many of the holes are extended. The way this is done, as I recall, is that the wooden body is thicker at the area of that hole. Bassoons are crazy things. Love 'em. So the wall is thicker at that hole. And the hole is then drilled at an angle and the resulting hole extends outward well away from the bore. I could probably find an example in a photo if anyone is interested. But it is not unlike what david-h describes really.

I found an example here at about 7:40 in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R8hCzBTuLM
By the way, if anyone is interested in making woodwinds that entire series of videos is useful viewing.

Feadoggie

[kkrell]

Here - make one of these with a whistle blade instead of a double-reed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rackett

[david_h]

If angled holes in thick walls work would thin pipes connected lower down the main tube and led back to where fingers could reach do anything useful ?

Funny, I was thinking exactly the same thing. Maybe flexible vinyl tubes plugged on the ends and finger holes drilled in the sides near the plugs. I imagine finding the right hole positions to compensate for the length of the tubes would be tricky.

If the main tube had a wide internal bore it might be possible to have the 'finger tubes' attached to the inside and emerging as an ordinary looking finger hole.

Getting it to work over two octaves (if it worked for one) might be especially tricky.

[Feadoggie]

It is also possible to cut a bore off center or eccentric so that the holes, drilled straight on or angled, would have a longer chimney.

Of course that would not help to OP with schedule 40 PVC. I suppose it would still be possible to nest layers of PVC at the right places while filling the gaps between layers with epoxy and then drilling long holes. Fingering might be tough though.

Anyone have plans/drawings for a baroque bassoon?

Feadoggie

[Tunborough]

Reed instruments have an inherent advantage in the low ranges... The reed resembles a closed end, so the tube is a quarter wavelength at the fundamental. A whistle needs a half wavelength tube, so the same length of tube will sound an octave higher.

[benhall.1]

Reed instruments have an inherent advantage in the low ranges... The reed resembles a closed end, so the tube is a quarter wavelength at the fundamental. A whistle needs a half wavelength tube, so the same length of tube will sound an octave higher.

Reed instruments that have cylindrical bores, that is. When they have conical bores (which I think is the case with pipes (?)) they behave similarly to open-ended tubes.

[Peter Duggan]

which I think is the case with pipes (?)

By and large, but with notable exceptions (eg Scottish and Northumbrian smallpipes)...

http://forums.bobdunsire.com/forums/sho ... hp?t=80931

[hans]

Reed instruments that have cylindrical bores, that is. When they have conical bores (which I think is the case with pipes (?)) they behave similarly to open-ended tubes.

No, they still have a fundamental frequency with a corresponding wave which is about a quarter of the bore length. But normal pipes get played using a high pressure, so the chanter reed never vibrates in its lowest mode, instead is overblown and plays an octave higher (or higher even). A GHP practise chanter gets blown with much less pressure, and although it has the same length than a standard GHP pipe chanter, it plays indeed an octave lower (low A about 220Hz or a bit above, not in the 460 to 490 Hz range as with standard modern GHPs).

You can also look at the Saxophone, which has a conical bore. This does not raise the lowest octave magical up one octave. All instruments with vibrating air columns which have one open end instead of two sound in its fundamental mode an octave lower. Blow a bottle.

[benhall.1]

Reed instruments that have cylindrical bores, that is. When they have conical bores (which I think is the case with pipes (?)) they behave similarly to open-ended tubes.

No, they still have a fundamental frequency with a corresponding wave which is about a quarter of the bore length. But normal pipes get played using a high pressure, so the chanter reed never vibrates in its lowest mode, instead is overblown and plays an octave higher (or higher even). A GHP practise chanter gets blown with much less pressure, and although it has the same length than a standard GHP pipe chanter, it plays indeed an octave lower (low A about 220Hz or a bit above, not about 440Hz [or 466Hz where the A is really a Bb]).

You can also look at the Saxophone, which has a conical bore. This does not raise the lowest octave magical up one octave. All instruments with vibrating air columns which have one open end instead of two sound in its fundamental mode an octave lower. Blow a bottle.

Ah right. OK. I must admit, this technical stuff both fascinates me ... and is beyond me.

[Feadoggie]

Reed instruments have an inherent advantage in the low ranges... The reed resembles a closed end, so the tube is a quarter wavelength at the fundamental. A whistle needs a half wavelength tube, so the same length of tube will sound an octave higher.

I am aware of the differences reeds present although I've only dabbled with reeds. Sorry if I caused the thread drift to reeds.

My intention was actually to illustrate to the OP the drilling of the bassoon wing holes as a possible strategy on their bass whistle - not to illustrate the bore or tuning of a reed pipe. Sorry for the confusion. And I am not sure how early bassoons were drilled. That's why I was wondering about Baroque designs. Later, as well as modern, bassoons have very deep and angled holes in the wing section. Also the wall in that section juts out from the bore allowing for extended hole depth.

So following on from david-h's idea on extending the holes out of the bore, and then thinking about that contrabass recorder, I had started thinking along the lines of artificially building up the wall thickness, where appropriate, to support extending the holes to a point where they become manageable for the hand. Probably more of a design effort than the OP has in mind.

I should learn to stop posting my random thoughts.

Feadoggie

[Peter Duggan]

A GHP practise chanter gets blown with much less pressure, and although it has the same length than a standard GHP pipe chanter, it plays indeed an octave lower

It's also (despite outward appearances) a cylindrical bore.

(low A about 220Hz or a bit above, not in the 460 to 490 Hz range as with standard modern GHPs).

And typically at concert Bb (ie 233Hz).

[cboody]

A GHP practise chanter gets blown with much less pressure, and although it has the same length than a standard GHP pipe chanter, it plays indeed an octave lower

It's also (despite outward appearances) a cylindrical bore.

(low A about 220Hz or a bit above, not in the 460 to 490 Hz range as with standard modern GHPs).

And typically at concert Bb (ie 233Hz).

Or so....

[Squeeky Elf]

Blow a bottle.

Hey man, no need to get personal!

[Daniel_Bingamon]

High guys. Yes, you can make a Low-Low-G with no keys. The "Basswhistle" that I made in the photo is Low-Low-D --- and the price difference between it and the Recorder are substantially different.

Now, about three or four years ago I had my Basswhistle with me at a Native American Flute event at Sunwatch in Dayton OH (No, I was not performing). I ran into a flute maker who had made a NAF that went down to "Low-low-D", that is 146.832 with no keys. Although, the instrument was quite soft spoken it did work and play in tune.

In regards to reeds, a typical cylindrical bore reed instrument naturally plays an octave below the fipple instruments. Also, the length/bore parameters are different. The Rackett for example can be a 1/4" diameter tube and be quite a length. They have a difficult time with water logging - so if you engineer a solution to that then you might have a marketable product.

In regards to putting a Fipple on a Rackett design, there is this pesky thing called the "Laws of Physics" at hand. Due to the fact that a whistles vibrating air column is very low pressure, it takes quite a bit of diameter to support this.
Much like in electricity, the same wattage at 230 volts requires a certain diameter wire and when you want to transmit that same wattage at 110 volts it takes a thicker wire. (Whistle = wider bore) Pressure acting much like voltage must balance out and the current demand increases. (All right, that language above is intended for more lay persons --- you physics students go easy, the wording wasn't intended for you.)

I myself am wanting to take break from all this. I have some microprocessor projects that I'm interested in doing and I'm planning on creating a book that will publish all of my various whistle designs.

The past winter was very difficult, trying to keep the uninsulated workshop heated during those "Polar Vortices", then travel with the day job. It was quite discouraging. Plus, I've been making whistles for 16-years and little bit burnt out at it.