Reed: bad C#, back D

[mke_mick]

Hi, all:

I'm working on a new (homemade) reed that seems to be about 90% there: it plays in tune across both octaves and has a nice tone overall. But both C# and back D sound like a flatulent duck -- a real nasty honk -- and also there's no hard D. Note that C-natural and E are just fine.

Is this reed just a dud, or is there something I can try by way of scraping or suchlike? It's a Gallagher-style concert-pitch reed with a hand-rolled staple and a standard "strap-type" bridle (though I've also tried a wrapped-wire bridle, with no change in behavior).

Thanks in advance,
Mick

[myrddinemrys]

These are the weakest notes, so stability needs to be introduced to the reed to make these more "solid". There are a couple things that I look at when this happens: 1. Reed is too long, so clip the lips of the reed only slightly. This will open the reed and relatively strengthen your scrape overall. 2. Reed may be too wide. Sand each edge only slightly, maybe a couple passes at a time on sandpaper.

[ImNotIrish]

Look closely at the bottom of he scrape, along the 'V.' You can scrape along the 'V' to bring in the bottom 'D', and perhaps also the high 'd' and 'c.' This may end up flattening the reed some, so you may have to trim the lips as previously mentioned.

[mke_mick]

Thanks, guys. Tried trimming the lips; no change in C# or back D. Gently sanded the sides a little; no change. I already had a nice wide "U" at the bottom of the scrape, but scraped that part down a bit more just in case; also no change.

I'm increasingly leaning towards the theory that it's simply a bad reed. Pity, though; it's only those two notes (C#, back D) that don't work. (Hard D I can live without if it comes to it. On this reed, regular low D is in tune, which is funny since with many reeds hard D is in tune and regular D is a bit flat.)

The good news is, the other two reeds I'd been working on in tandem with this one are just fine.

Regards,
Mick

[geoff wooff]

Perhaps your 'Reed Head Speed' is too low ?

[tommykleen]

Do you carve a chamber in your reeds? It's a Rogge-style thing, and effects more the EEs I believe. Just curious.

[mke_mick]

Mr. Wooff: what do you mean by "Reed Head Speed?" Do you mean frequency? If so, how would I increase it?

Mr. Kleen: I'm making these per Seth Gallagher's specs, which don't include a tone chamber, nor even a "tail gouge" -- the cane's inner profile is uniform (uniformly tapered, that is) down its entire length.

Really I'm hoping I can just "scrape this problem away" from the outside, the danger being that you can always remove material but you can't put it back. I'd consider adding a tone-chamber inside if anyone seriously thinks that might help, but if those mainly effect 2nd-octave E, I don't see the point.

On the third hand, I don't have anything to lose if I'm 80% sure it's just a dud reed. Like I said, the two others from this batch, which I made to the same specs, are working pretty well.

Thanks to all for weighing in!

--Mick

[geoff wooff]

Mick,
"reed head speed" is a term that I coined to describe the pitch of note which you obtain when you draw air through the reed by sucking steadily at the staple end. I have specific pitches and sounds that I am looking for when testing reeds for Flat chanters... but modern wide bore concert pitch is just not my thing so I'll not offer any 'ideals' on what I'd expect for your reeds . However, you can compare the pitch of the problem reed with the ones that work well.

it is just that unless a chanter reed has enough tone height ( reed head speed) it will start to get weak when the effective chanter length is getting short, which translates as when you have the upper finger holes open , problems at D and C# would suggest this. It is a bit like 'sinking back D' which is often caused by having the middle of the scrape too thin... so that the lips when closing touch in the centre first. This, is a very common problem due to sanding the curved crossection of the head on a flat surface.

Another area that you could experiment with is the Staple Eye Height.... perhaps closing down the staple eye height will strengthen back D and raise it in pitch... perhaps not

[mke_mick]

Ah, very helpful. I'll compare the reed's "crowing-pitch" with that of the working reeds.

Your point re. scrape-geometry raises another question: how do you prevent your scrape from being too thin down the midde?

Thanks much,
Mick

[geoff wooff]

Bigger reply tomorrow but I scrape to finish , not sand, so I use a curved blade scalpel and direct my scraping into areas only a few millimetres wide, and keep away from the centre.

Time for bed!

[Lorenzo]

Yes, stay away from the spine (centre) for the most part. If this backbone--especially near the tip--is scraped too thin, the reed will sound bright and raspy, but if left too thick the lips will vibrate hardly at all. There are 3 basic zones to consider within the scrape on each side of the spine: the tip, the plateau, and the back. The tip has it's own zones, like the corners. The vibration must be transferred through each zone correctly to achieve the most highly desired result. Here's a short video (less than one minute) of the tool and scraping technique I learned from a friend who makes exquisite reeds for oboe, but parallels do exist with UP chanter reeds...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MDob7qZ ... 4-overview

[mke_mick]

Thanks, Lorenzo. I've considered getting a reed knife like that -- the Stanley knives I've been using are cheap and ubiquitous, but the blade is always loose and needs extra support.

But I don't see how any straight-edged knife could help mitigate the problem Geoff describes, of scraping- or sanding-pressure resulting in a thinned "spine" down the middle.

Last night I dug out my X-acto #22 knife, which is a curved blade very much like a scalpel. Taking some strokes off-center down each side of each blade of the reed in question didn't fix C# or D, but it did raise the "read head speed," bringing it closer to that of my better reeds. I've been working this reed enough that it might be time to trip the tips, which I'll try tonight (didn't do so yesterday because it seemed like a good idea to give the reed a rest first).

Cheers,
Mick

[Lorenzo]

But I don't see how any straight-edged knife could help mitigate the problem Geoff describes, of scraping- or sanding-pressure resulting in a thinned "spine" down the middle.

The bark of the reed slip comes from a round 1" dia. tube, so a flat bladed knife will still be able to skin off material between the rail and the spine, but only down to a certain extent. There's various ways, and various tools, that can get the same results though. I remember my mentor telling me there are/were grade school kids in Ireland making better reeds with only a gouge, shooting block, and Stanley knife than I was making after a year or two with more sophisticated tools.

Last night I dug out my X-acto #22 knife, which is a curved blade very much like a scalpel. Taking some strokes off-center down each side of each blade of the reed in question didn't fix C# or D, but it did raise the "read head speed," bringing it closer to that of my better reeds.

It's pretty hard to analyze a reed and its problems over the internet. If the outside dimensions are right, and the scrape is right, you left a tone chamber, the winding has the right tension, no leaks along sides of blades, the staple is optimum, the right size gouge is used, the chanter is made right, and other reeds work okay in it, the first thing that comes to mind is the thickness of the slip. I make mine thinner than most because my dry arid climate likes them better. (all assuming the cane is soft enough to begin with)

[mke_mick]

OK, I had at it again last night. Playing the reed after its good night's rest confirmed that it was near collapse structurally -- the 2nd octave would only respond with crazy-light pressure, which was a little bit of a contradiction (and made the reed unplayable, for me anyhow). Happily, the bad notes, C# and back D, were no longer honking and farting; instead, each sounded a very thin, very flat C-natural.

So, I thought, I seem to be on the right track with Geoff's suggested technique of scraping "off the spine;" before resuming that I just needed to trim the tips to regain some structure. But in the process of trimming, my hand slipped and I split the reed, badly. This time I was unable to superglue it: the blade stubbornly refused to resume its former arched shape. Game over.

But I think I've almost learned something here! Mr. Wooff, I wait with 'bated breath for the longer explanation you hinted at, about your scalpel technique. On the other hand I know you're busy making pipes and having a life, so if that explanation is already recorded on "Heart of the Instrument Disc 2," I'll just pop some corn and fire up the DVD-player.

Thanks to all who helped!
--Mick

P.S. In the process, I did manage to get two other new reeds working well, plus the one that came with the chanter (which had shut down with the cold/dry weather). After two months of frustration, I can play again! My family is so very thrilled...

[geoff wooff]

es, Sorry Mick,
things got busy here... not that they are ever quite. You should find reasonable explainations of my Reed scraping methods on that NPU DVD.

Use a very sharp blade and take one sweep (removing a shaving about 2mm wide) down the borders of the scrape area ,each side , left and right... to make a playable reed lighter.... but only one tiny scrape on each side and test for improvement.