Stirring the pot on the Unspoken "Forum Rules"

[ickabod]

I have “kind of” been learning the “unwritten or unspoken rules” of the forum. There are certain things that seem to stir up controversy.

I guess the part I don’t understand is why there is such a hair trigger as it relates to iTrad. It would be much clearer if someone presented a piece of music with the message of “This song is done how it should be in Irish Tradition”. To me, this statement would invite this kind of debate that was done with Talbert St. Claire.

So I’m a bit confused as to the enforcement of iTrad protocol. Rather, not so much enforcement, but a highlighting of a swing and a miss type of critique to music that wasn’t really billed as iTrad to begin with (such as the case with Talbert St. Claire).

Don’t get me wrong here. I’m not at all suggesting there isn’t any value to pointing out whether something falls in or out of Irish Tradition. Because, there certainly is value to that. Some folks, I’m sure, would appreciate learning where they are falling out of tradition and want some direction to correct themselves to get back in line with the Irish traditional approach.

I wasn’t sure of greenspiderwebs intentions on the Talbert post, but I don’t believe his intention was to set the precedent on performing May Morning Dew in the Irish Traditional way. I think all he was doing is sharing a video for people’s enjoyment (unless I missed something).

This got me to thinking… Perhaps I’m missing something. Is this an Irish Traditional forum and other non-traditional members or approaches to music are trespassing where they shouldn’t be? Perhaps most people on this forum are iTrad folks and while it really isn’t a spoken or written rule, the expectation is that folks who participate in the forums here need to be “iTrad” folks? Presenting other alternatives to iTrad seems to annoy certain folks. Perhaps this isn’t the case, but that is the impression I get at times.

I understand that not all members are iTrad purists. But, there definitely is a fraternity. Not to mention, the best whistlers typically tend to be iTrad purists, so their opinions hold a lot of weight and those opinions spill over to their philosophies and ideology.

So that begs the question.. What are the unwritten rules or expectations of those who post here? As of right now, my best determination is that anyone can accidently step on a iTrad landmine and set off a bomb. So, I’m not really sure if this just all part of good friendly debate on musical ideology (which I think is the case in most instances) or If folks are really getting annoyed by non-iTrad approaches and alternatives to music.

[Mr.Gumby]

I think the forum became a much better and tolerant place when members, over time, stopped thinking in terms of 'fraternity', 'iTrad landmine', 'ideology', 'purists'. It would be sad if the discourse was to go back to centering around the various derogatives as it will eventually lead to a poisonous and divisive atmosphere where there is none now.

As to the Talbert saga, some knowledge of the forum's history, or the man's history on the forum would go a long way to answering your questions.


[edit for typo]

[Peter Duggan]

I wasn’t sure of greenspiderwebs intentions on the Talbert post

Promoting Talbert's videos because Talbert asked him to?

Is this an Irish Traditional forum and other non-traditional members or approaches to music are trespassing where they shouldn’t be?

Not officially, no. As I've observed before, there are just four forums here with 'Irish' in their titles and/or descriptions, and the Whistle Forum isn't one of them. But, yes, it has strong Irish leanings and some folks (not me!) clearly feel awkward about discussing other things.

As for Talbert's playing and 'tutorial', the real issue for me is not whether it's pure-drop trad but whether it's good, and I don't personally think that kind of doodly, droopy, low whistle noodling needs half the skill he implies unless you're doing it with the artistry of a Davy Spillane. So perhaps the course of that thread is at least in part simply a case of self-promoting, sub-Spillane noodling getting the reaction you'd expect from folks who live the music he's toying with there.

[Feadoggie]

Stirring the pot, eh?

I suppose after all that talk of meat that someone was sure to throw in some carrots, onions and potatoes to start a stew.

Feadoggie

[Steve Bliven]

I don't know the back-story on Mr. St. Claire (and I gather there is one) but I'd offer a couple of observations:

- a significant part of the St. Claire thread has been whether the music is of sufficient quality to serve as a tool in teaching the low whistle. Certainly there has been some talk as to whether it's "trad enough", but it was presented as a version of an Irish air....

- there have been discussions of other whistle music forms on this forum; Kwela music comes up with some regularity and its getting near the time for the annual discussion of jazz on the whistle based on the Coltrane whistle tapes.

- but, again, most of the Forum members have come here from an Irish music direction, so it's not surprising that there's an emphasis on that here.

Them's my thoughts.

Best wishes.

Steve

[Loren]

As to the Talbert saga, some knowledge of the forum's history, or the man's history on the forum would go a long way to answering your questions.

This.

[Nanohedron]

Perhaps I’m missing something. Is this an Irish Traditional forum and other non-traditional members or approaches to music are trespassing where they shouldn’t be?

No. It's a whistle forum. All sorts of music on that instrument gets discussed here, and that is as it should be. The ITM Forum is down the Index Page a ways. But, if anything related directly to ITM gets discussed in a thread here, one must expect viewpoints from within that tradition, as with any other.

Perhaps most people on this forum are iTrad folks and while it really isn’t a spoken or written rule, the expectation is that folks who participate in the forums here need to be “iTrad” folks?

Again, no. See above.

Presenting other alternatives to iTrad seems to annoy certain folks. Perhaps this isn’t the case, but that is the impression I get at times.

First, it's only fair to acknowledge that ITM does indeed seem to be the majority discussion. But that's not in the slightest because of any rule. That noted, I can't speak to how alternative music affects others. It doesn't annoy me at all. Indeed, play what you will, and more power to you; I may or may not be interested. BUT: if you are going to present something as Irish/Scottish/Kwela/Jazz/Skiffle/What-have-you, you will get interest and scrutiny from those who know and work within those areas, particularly if it is supposed to be a well-known piece, and if you claim that but appear to have sold the public a bill of goods, you will hear about it. It's the same as a public service announcement, not an attack for partisanship's sake. That's only fair, and it's not the same thing as a style club lording it over the forum. If you will recall, I said in the thread in question that there is a difference between presenting one's own tune on its own merits, and calling it something it is not; in this case, using the name of an already-existing tune to label one's own distinctly unrelated composition. Living traditions aren't static, but neither are they anarchic free-for-alls open and subject to the whims of the casual passerby.

If someone nevertheless insists on calling that unfair and the oppression of a style cabal, I can't help with that. I have explained matters as well and reasonably as I know how.

...the best whistlers typically tend to be iTrad purists, so their opinions hold a lot of weight...

No, their opinions hold weight because they are top players. What they play is a different entity.

...and those opinions spill over to their philosophies and ideology.

I think you have misunderstood entirely what was going on in the other thread. Let me repeat yet again and yet once more: I for one couldn't care less that the tune was or wasn't "Irish". What I cared about was that the tune wasn't what he said it was. Period. Not only that, I backed up my assertion beyond any doubt, and reasonably, I think. Facts are beyond ideology. If it makes me an oppressor to inform the public of that, all in the interest of keeping earnest ITM learners from misinformation, I would suggest that the offended take a hard and frank look at their own philosophies.

You know, I suspect very strongly that if this had centered similarly around a Kwela tune, we wouldn't even be having a further discussion about Kwela oppression. Think about that.

What are the unwritten rules or expectations of those who post here?

"Be honest in the sense that you are accountable." I think that just about covers it.

[kkrell]

Let us not also forget the Spoken (or written, actually) "Forum Rules":

The C&F Consolidated Concordat on Policy (CCCP)

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=84192

[ecohawk]

Well said Mr. Gumby. Exactly the correct answer.

Thanks,
ecohawk

[pancelticpiper]

Presenting other alternatives to iTrad seems to annoy certain folks.

I understand that not all members are iTrad purists. But, there definitely is a fraternity.

First, I know nothing about that other thread, and I don't know who that person is, much less the background.

For myself, I listen to 'other alternatives to iTrad' all the time, am a huge jazz and blues and Baroque fan, so things other than 'iTrad' certainly don't annoy me.

I play in a small group that plays Irish and Scottish traditional music but I also do a number of Church gigs where I'm using the whistle in a non-iTrad setting.

However I did originally take up the whistle specifically to play iTrad and tried my best to sound as traditional as possible. To some I would appear to be an iTrad 'purist' or 'snob' but to an actual Irish traditional musician I'm merely another American dabbling in their music. In other words I'm certainly not a member of any putative 'fraternity'.

What DOES annoy me is when people PURPORT to play iTrad but do it badly, or wrongly.

It's the falseness that's annoying, not the fact that somebody is playing something other than authentic Irish traditional music.

[StevieJ]

A decade ago or more, when I was a lot more active on here than I am now, those of us who were trying to nudge people in the direction of a traditional aesthetic in playing Irish music on the whistle came in for a lot of flak from those who thought that anything should go.

The difference I see today is that several of the people actively moderating now seem to be primarily interested in Irish trad. And strange to say I find myself thinking that they come down a little too hard on efforts that don't meet their standards. I must be getting old. Let me rephrase that: it must be because I am getting old.

[Mr.Gumby]

A decade ago or more, when I was a lot more active on here than I am now, those of us who were trying to nudge people in the direction of a traditional aesthetic in playing Irish music on the whistle came in for a lot of flak from those who thought that anything should go.

That was the time I was thinking of. I am glad the ugliness of those days has left the forum. I suppose, we've been there and still have the t-shirt.

[Mr Ed]

A decade ago or more, when I was a lot more active on here than I am now, those of us who were trying to nudge people in the direction of a traditional aesthetic in playing Irish music on the whistle came in for a lot of flak from those who thought that anything should go.

I haven't been here a decade but have come to appreciate the nudges.

[ytliek]

I don't mind the pot being stirred at all. I just don't relish the thought of being eaten alive.

While yes my purpose for following the whistle forum is iTrad mostly, the journey has opened so many other doors with the whistle non-iTrad. Its anything whistle related. In fact, I was more interested in the craftsmanship of making (wooden) whistles specifically and musical instruments in general, although I'm not a craftsman myself. I've always enjoyed seeing people and their workshops, especially the ones where its the escape from the busy and hectic everyday world with countless hours devoted, possibly years spent in crafting an instrument. There is something about that aesthetic that does it for me.

[Michael Anderson]

Living traditions aren't static, but neither are they anarchic free-for-alls open and subject to the whims of the casual passerby.

Facts are beyond ideology.

You don't mind if I steal these quotes and tell everyone I know they are at the very core of my worldview, do you?