In the Whistling World you don't get what you pay for

[ickabod]

I have two Low Whistles that are probably going to end up in the dumpster..

I purchased a susato High C some time ago and was really happy with it. I figured the Susato Low G would be a sure winner. Nope! The Susato Low G will break into the upper octave far too easily on the G and A notes while trying to maintain the first octave. In fact, I can punch right up in the third octave with little effort on both notes.

The only hack or tweak I’m aware of for the Susatos are the O’ring hack. I tried this and it only made the condition worse. I never play the whistle anymore and thought I would ask for possible solutions before I toss it into the dumpster.

I have the same problem on the Tony Dixon Low D Aluminum whistle.. I really did not know a whole lot about whistles when I purchased this (I suppose one can still say this is the case as I haven’t been playing whistles long). Regardless, I can say with all sincerity I would have went another direction had I known then what I do now. Since I have about $150 in the instrument I am hoping there are things that can be done to circumvent chalking up the process as a complete loss..

1. I have the same problem here is I did with Susato Low G. The low D and low E notes will break into the second octave far too easily. The Putty hack won’t really work to help stabilize the lower notes because the design of whistle doesn’t have a hole where the putty normally would get pushed in. Is there anything else I could potentially do to help strengthen these two notes?

2. The upper octave is just a mess when it comes to intonation. From F# on up the whistle goes extremely flat. The lower octave is fairly sweet and enjoyable. It’s the only thing that keeps me from chalking up the purchase as an complete utter loss.. I can say with confidence that It’s not breathe control at issue here because I would literally pop a blood vessel if I had send that much air into instrument in order to get it into tune. If there is some kind of tweak or procedure that can be done I would definitely try it. Intonation is not a problem at all for the Susato Low G.

I’ve been looking for possible solutions and I don’t think there are any. I think it is time for me to graduate to another Low D soon. I have the Tony Dixon Low A polymer and I have none of these issues. I also have the B flat generation whistle which handles perfectly for me… I find this kind of amusing when I look at how much I paid for the Generation ($20) and the Dixon Polymer A ($55). It would appear in the whistling world you do not get what you pay for.

I don’t really think there is much else I can do. But, if anybody would know of anything, it would be the folks here on Chiff and Fipple.

Thanks in advance…

[stanton135]

One thing you could try for sharpening the second octave on your Dixon is a Tipple-Fajardo wedge, http://tippleflutes.com/the-tipple-fajardo-wedge/.

I've made them myself using PVC pipe and a miter saw. If you're not the DIY type, Doug sells them for $10 plus shipping. I don't know for certain that the ones he sells would be the right diameter for your Dixon.

If you do make your own, I've found that a bit of trial-and-error helps to get the best octave relationship. I cut the wedge at a 2 or 3 degree angle, and I make it longer than I think I'll need. I pop it in the flute or low whistle and check the tuning. If the second octave notes are too sharp, I cut a bit off from the flat end of the wedge, reinsert it, and check the tuning again.

You probably won't end up with perfection, but it could be a definite improvement. Anyway, it's a completely reversible tweak, as long as you don't glue the wedge in place.

[Mr.Gumby]

The upper octave is just a mess when it comes to intonation. From F# on up the whistle goes extremely flat. The lower octave is fairly sweet and enjoyable. It’s the only thing that keeps me from chalking up the purchase as an complete utter loss.. I can say with confidence that It’s not breathe control at issue here because I would literally pop a blood vessel if I had send that much air into instrument in order to get it into tune. If there is some kind of tweak or procedure that can be done I would definitely try it. Intonation is not a problem at all for the Susato Low G.

Have you considered you may be blowing the lower octave too hard = causing notes to break and have it play sharp when compared to the higher octave?

[ickabod]

The upper octave is just a mess when it comes to intonation. From F# on up the whistle goes extremely flat. The lower octave is fairly sweet and enjoyable. It’s the only thing that keeps me from chalking up the purchase as an complete utter loss.. I can say with confidence that It’s not breathe control at issue here because I would literally pop a blood vessel if I had send that much air into instrument in order to get it into tune. If there is some kind of tweak or procedure that can be done I would definitely try it. Intonation is not a problem at all for the Susato Low G.

Have you considered you may be blowing the lower octave too hard = causing notes to break and have it play sharp when compared to the higher octave?

Mr. Gumby, I suppose this is possible. I think what your suggesting is that when I went about trying to get the whistle in tune I slid it into such a position that it required too much air and the end result is a flat second octave (or an octave that requires far too much wind in order to be played properly).

My understanding here is that in order for this to be the case that would mean that low E and D notes would require even fainter puffs of air than it currently does after the adjustment. Currently, I am really pulling back to prevent shooting upward in the 2nd Octave. I'm in trouble If the only fix is an adjustment that requires even less air to be used to properly sound the low E and D notes. That or the whistles life expectancy just got much shorter.

So it does seem to me that I’m not breathing too hard. But, my understanding of the process is limited by my lack experience.

[Mr.Gumby]

I think what your suggesting is that when I went about trying to get the whistle in tune I slid it into such a position that it required too much air and the end result is a flat second octave

I am only suggesting you consider the possibility you are blowing the lower octave too hard, blowing it sharp and breaking the lower notes.

I don't know the whistle in question but the way you describe it I think it's worth considering this. Some whistles need merely breathing into to speak properly.

[benhall.1]

I don't think low whistles are easy instruments at all. Firstly, I'd second the suggestion made by Mr Gumby. That sounds very likely to me. But I think there may be another cause as well.

A lot of people when they're learning how to play whistles can't cover the holes properly on low whistles. The thing is, they think they are covering the holes. But every one of those holes above the open hole for the note itself (whatever it happens to be) must be covered. It takes ages to be able to do this reliably. If there is a part-open hole higher up the whistle, then it is very likely to pop up an octave, if it sounds at all. I wonder if you have yet managed to cover all those holes properly.

Here's an exercise which may, or may not, help: play the note equivalent to a 'B' in the bottom octave, ie with one hole covered on the top hand. Get a long, steady note out of it. Then play the B again and, whilst blowing, put the next finger down and hold the note. Keep doing that until you can get a long, steady tone out of the 'A'. Then play the A and, whilst blowing, put the next finger down and hold the note. Keep doing that until you get to the bottom of the whistle.

If you can get down to the bottom of the whistle using the above method, then there is nothing wrong with the whistle, and you know what you have to do - practice.

Also ... get someone who is experienced in playing low whistles to try your whistles. If you can find someone. Even if there's no-one close to you, don't throw them in the dumpster - rather than that, post them to someone who could try them for you and maybe e-mail a video to you, or even post one here.

[MTGuru]

Can we assume this is an M-bore (medium) Susato G? I believe they used to offer an L-bore (large) low G, but no longer.

If so ... I have to say that my Susato G is one of my best whistles. It's sweet and responsive, and the bell D and the E (what you're calling concert G and A) are stable and solid.

In fairness, Susatos do exhibit some variability in the heads - I've seen good ones and some not so good. So it's possible you have a wonky one. And if you purchased directly from Kelischek you might ask for an exchange.

But in most cases I've come upon, the problem you describe is more likely to be player error. And just because you can manage other whistles doesn't necessarily mean that's still not the case here, since whistles respond differently to breath. Here's the clue:

In fact, I can punch right up in the third octave with little effort on both notes.

I've never come across any whistle that showed any risk of inadvertently punching up into the 3rd register. Which suggests that you are blowing WAAAY too hard in the lower register. That could also account for your intonation on the Dixon if it's not that the upper notes are flat, but that you're blowing the lower notes way too sharp. It's consistent.

Your best bet before tossing anything is to have a really good trad whistler check them out, in person. Which is true of any instrument. You'll know in 10 seconds if the problem is you or the instruments.

Barring that, try posting a clip of your playing those instruments here for diagnosis. In fact, I really wish that beginners especially (and I don't know your level) would automatically include clips with posts of this nature. Until one reaches a certain level of proficiency, verbal descriptions are simply not reliable.

The only hack or tweak I’m aware of for the Susatos are the O’ring hack. I tried this and it only made the condition worse.

If you read my O-Ring Tweak carefully, you'll note that the purpose is to tame the upper notes, not strengthen the lower notes. So it's no surprise. In fact, moving the O-ring above the windway (i.e., to the beak side) may help that issue, similar to the the "wall and wings" of certain whistles like the Copeland low D. No harm trying, but the effect is not consistent enough that I'd recommend it.

[Sirchronique]

I own both whistles. Yes, the susato low G does require less pressure to get into the second octave than the A or Bb would (of the M bore), but I certainly don't think it's to the extent described here. There are certainly whistles which jump up much much more easily than the susato low G.

Not to repeat the same thing over and over again, but... you are blowing too hard. Some whistles need to be blown more softly, and it's just a characteristic of that instrument.

[JoFo]

Well some whistles do have very weak and unstable lower notes (D and E on a D whistle).
I have several low whistles that work fine.
But I recently bought a hand made lovely looking whistle from Ireland...
The second octave was nice and sweet, but the the whole first octave and especially the lowest notes were hyper sensitive and very very quiet.
In short it was unusable as an instrument, as you could hardly hear the lowest notes. I did manage to improve the balance between the octaves and make the lowest notes steadier and stronger though.
This required opening up the window (i e making it "taller") with a file, and then re-shaping the angle of the "lip".
This method will, however, not help a flat upper octave, but might even make it even flatter. In this particular case the intonation was fine after the tweak too.

[Feadoggie]

Well some whistles do have very weak and unstable lower notes (D and E on a D whistle).

Be that as it may in your case , the whistles in question are well know whistles which many of us own, play and whose characteristics we are quite familiar with.

Feadoggie

[MTGuru]

No straightforward correlation between whistle price and whistle performance is true enough. But ...

I've probably played/tried several hundred whistles over the years (which is not a lot by some counts, I know). And there's only one I ever came across that was so unstable in the bottom notes that I considered it unplayable rather than a matter of adjusting my technique to the personality of the instrument. It was a fairly expensive "designer" whistle from an American maker.

I also have a low D which I bought very early on in my "serious" whistling career, based on the maker's name and the shop's recommendation. I found the bottom notes completely unplayable and I soon put it aside as my beginner's foible. Years later when I dusted it off and gave it another try, I was shocked to discover that the problem had somehow cured itself. Or maybe it was elves.

[hoopy mike]

I don’t really think there is much else I can do.…

Practice.

[farmerjones]

Like you, I have a Susato low G and haven't been playing very long. I find it to be like you said. It's very easy to overblow into the second octave because the whistle hardly needs any air at all. I can barely whisper into it and I will still have the low G come out.

I have the most problems after playing my Optima which can handle more air then my susato. I think that is just something we have to overcome if we want to play in more than one key.

[Mitch]

There are elves.

If you don't know them .. they don't know you.

Some elves are known and forgotten in a cyclic manner .. that's confusing.

Try changing your hands - sometimes .. the shift of attitude precipitated by that helps to see the elves - and remember how you forgot.

If you are right handed .. use your left to re-calibrate. I'm not suggesting you become a permanent human - temporary seems good enough in the hive ..

But you'd better go there - the hive is not nice if you don't have some elves in a corner of your garden

Then again .. elves are probably carcinogenic in large doses

Who knows?

I can't play low whistles .. often.
You need elves .. or the bottom tone-holes don't get covered properly - and we blame our tools like all poor craftsmen.
It's an acceptable tradition for hive-people.
That's what keeps us t/here.

[pancelticpiper]

I have a load of Susatos bought over the last 30+ years, including a couple of the early ones all machined out of brown and white PVC with wood blocks.

Currently I own Low C, a few Low Ds, Low Eb, E, F, F#/Gb, G, G#/Ab, and A.

As for G's, I have one of the c1980 ones machined out of brown PVC with wood block, and a couple more recent all-black-plastic ones with two different bore sizes.

None of them have been as you describe. The hallmarks, it seems to me, of Susatos are a clear strong low octave with a powerful bellnote, loud bright 2nd octave, well-in-tune octaves, and easy action between the octaves. The knock on them is usually that they're too loud and bright.

I have noticed considerable inconsistencies in the scale (that is, tonehole sizing and placement being off) of the various Susatos I have, and most of mine have been carved.

Anyhow my low Susatos all have a loud full clear strong low octave. I've never encountered a Susato with weak low notes, never encountered a Susato with a flat 2nd octave.

Over the last few years I've been steadily replacing the Susatos in my roll with Burkes. In that regard I feel I do get what I pay for.

Richard