The times they are a changin

A forum about Uilleann (Irish) pipes and the surly people who play them.
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Mr.Gumby
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Re: The times they are a changin

Post by Mr.Gumby »

Even if a modern piper chooses artisticly to record a "warts and all" solo album, that seeks to recreate that live feel, there is still a very different mind set at play to the way we create albums now.
Is there? Or better does there need to be? Recording technique and equipment are such that you can set up in your kitchen and record a decent sounding in CD in your kitchen in one or two sittings. Not a bother.

Not really different from the way Ennis recorded The Pure Drop and The Foxchase albums: in one long one night studio session. And, FWIW, I remember listening to Ennis at one point and thinking how his pipes sounded almost exactly as they do on those albums.
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Re: The times they are a changin

Post by Brazenkane »

ausdag wrote:
ennischanter wrote: Actually I find the sound quality of these recordings, even the scratchy ones, to far more accuratley represent the real-life sound of the pipes than modern studio recordings with all their compression etc.
Don't let the vintage feel of those old recordings fool you into believing old recording gear (especially field gear), too didn't have colouration and compression, too.
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Re: The times they are a changin

Post by ausdag »

maybe so but there still seems to be a much more real quality to the old recordings compared with modern (post 1980s era) recordings.
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Re: The times they are a changin

Post by Brazenkane »

I'm guessing for you, "real quality" probably has it's roots in something other than recording techniques/gear/technology?

For me, records like Mick O'Brien's latest few (and some others) benefit very nicely from today's technology.
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Re: The times they are a changin

Post by PhilD »

Mr.Gumby wrote: Not really different from the way Ennis recorded The Pure Drop and The Foxchase albums: in one long one night studio session. And, FWIW, I remember listening to Ennis at one point and thinking how his pipes sounded almost exactly as they do on those albums.
I suppose I was thinking of the period before Ennis. Ennis, for me at least, feels like the starting point of the modern sound. I also think Ennis is a special case, due to his work with the bbc and his field collecting activitys he was comfortable around recording equipment, and as a result, I would argue, had a very different mindset to his own recording than some of his subjects. It is a more calculated approach, more modern. It may have only recorded in a kitchen in an all night session, but he was conciously making an album. As apposed to "give us a tunes and we'll record it."
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Re: The times they are a changin

Post by Mr.Gumby »

In that sense Touhey's recordings are utterly modern : designed as performance with maximum impact.

To me Ennis' recordings always sound as living music, created on the spot. He was ofcourse in a sense a performer and as such aware of the impact of the things he did. On the other hand, his field recordings are no diffferent in atmosphere and approach while even his most deliberately performance recordings can be as unplanned and on the edge (to the point of falling over badly) as his most informal pieces.

The same could be said for Clancy who was well aware of the settings he played n an is always described as preparing well for recordings or gigs.

I ofcourse understand what you're getting at but personally find it hard to draw a line where one area begins and another ends.
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Re: The times they are a changin

Post by Kevin L. Rietmann »

Modern era begins for me with LO'F and his Solo Art album with the drones being supplied by a looped DAT tape. :evil: Hey, cheating! First place I ever heard about such digital shenanigans was the reissue of the Tribute to Michael Coleman record where Joe Burke wrote about going back and editing out the mistakes in the original 1965 recording. Have always hated that sort of tomfoolery. Like a mistake is going to be the end of the world. But that's show business I guess.

Engineers had no clue about how to record pipes for a long time, I guess Liam O' or Paddy M figured that out pretty quickly. Actually the Chieftains records always have good balance for the pipes, but Ennis's 70s records have pretty monolithic mixes, especially the Topic. You wish someone could have stepped in and fixed that. You only need a couple of good mics in the proper places to get a decent recording, they say.
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Re: The times they are a changin

Post by Brazenkane »

Hear, Hear, Kevin and Peter!!!!

Kevin, you can even do it w/one mic. It just takes a bunch of play-backs to get the mic in the optimum position.
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Re: The times they are a changin

Post by brad maloney »

I blame bands... I can't for life of me tell one band from the next: fast, ill thought out brand new tunes or dumbed down settings of common ones (attempting to be obscure) all driven by offbeat cool doood geetar and funky bodhran beats. They all have one of each instrument playing with as little personal flair as possible so that they all sound exactly the same. It's like overboiled oatmeal made with too much water.

It's bled into sessions too, gone are the crazy sidesplitting sessions of yore, nowadays they seem more somber and serious everyone is playing everything in perfect unison - if you play a triplet instead of a roll they'll backhandedly compliment you on your "nice variation".

Boo :tomato:
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Re: The times they are a changin

Post by Mr.Gumby »

I have a little clipeen here to illustrate my point above. This comes from a tape that was recorded as a, what I call, musical letter : a recording made for a friend or neighbour abroad sending greetings and tunes. In this case the letter is addressed to 'Eddie', the location of the recording is the house of Thady Casey at the Crosses of Annagh and the characters are fiddlers Thady Casey and James Flynn and pipers Martin Talty, Willie Clancy, JC Talty and Séamus Ennis (who takes over as MC after playing his pieces). Everybody says a few words and plays a few selections, except for Martin Talty who is in control of the tape recorder and Willie Clancy who ate all the food and drank all the drink (this from Ennis comments at the end of the tape).

Anyhow, this is Ennis' first contribution, he starts with a beautifully executed Wind that shakes the Barley, stumbles into The Maid behind the Bar, gets shaky in the last bar of that one, looking for something to go into, and goes to firm ground by playing the Dublin Reel and for a close falls into The Dairy Maid without, it seems, knowing what he's getting into. He doesn't really remember the notes but has the outline and gets through it once, creating a new version on the spot before falling flat.

Anyhow, the recording mixes the formal. the recording of tunes for a friend, with the informal, the men having tea and cakes supplied by Mrs Casey. Ennis mixing his role as performer and radio presenter with that of friend and traditional musician, playing on the edge, come what may, and producing exciting stuff in the process.

For Eddie : Séamus Ennis playing The Wind that shakes the Barley
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Re: The times they are a changin

Post by ennischanter »

Thanks for that clip, a nice treat!
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Re: The times they are a changin

Post by Kevin L. Rietmann »

Thanks as well, Peter, that's grand stuff. Very casual going. Sounds like he's mulling over whether to play the Cushoge/Stony Steps at the end, too, figures ah! best to wrap things up. When was the tape made?

I'll reciprocate later in the day, have an idea on how to illustrate how things have changed in piping with a recording, multiple players having at the one tune. I've done this in the past via cut 'n paste but can create these things in "real time" as it's called now which of course is infinitely easier.
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Re: The times they are a changin

Post by PhilD »

Kevin L. Rietmann wrote:Thanks as well, Peter, that's grand stuff. Very casual going. Sounds like he's mulling over whether to play the Cushoge/Stony Steps at the end, too, figures ah! best to wrap things up. When was the tape made?

I'll reciprocate later in the day, have an idea on how to illustrate how things have changed in piping with a recording, multiple players having at the one tune. I've done this in the past via cut 'n paste but can create these things in "real time" as it's called now which of course is infinitely easier.
Yes, thanks, its always fun to here music from your archive Peter.
Kevin, looking forward to hearing you backtoback clip.
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Re: The times they are a changin

Post by Mr.Gumby »

When was the tape made?
Not later than 1962-ish I would guess. Thady Casey was still playing before the arthritis got the better of him. He 's on there playing one of his favourites 'The Mount Famous Hunt'. James Flynn gave up early enough too, his daughter had never heard him play, she was delighted with a copy of the tape.
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Re: The times they are a changin

Post by Calum »

Kevin L. Rietmann wrote:Like I said I don't know much about Scottish piping rigmarole, except that it's there, the practice chanters, Scots Guards books, all those grips and throws, bands, competitions, etc etc. Irish piping is infinitely more laid-back. I've always referred to the stock style of playing the GHB as "military piping" because that's what my instructor called it, as opposed to "kitchen piping." Again, I'm an outsider to this tradition so bear with me here. "Military" doesn't imply non-traditional to me either, it's just the whole business of uniforms, parades, drilled instruction, grades of bands, etc, all is a bit martial in nature, and of course a lot of that takes place in the Army proper, so it's an understandable choice of terminology.

Don't know why you're bringing language into this, either; no, most great Irish pipers of the last century weren't Irish speakers but what does that have to do with anything? Are they supposed to be a cut below as a result? I know about Canntaireachd too but your average GHB instructor these days isn't barking crunnluaths and gearradhs at pupils either, I'd imagine.
I don't think Panceltic was trying to make any point about language as such, simply pointing out that the mainstream of 20th century GHB traditional teaching was done by people based very firmly in the tradition, and the fact that much of it flowed through the military is due to the unfortunate course of 20th century history and, to a certain extent, economics.

It's a funny thing, perception, and being on the inside looking out or vice versa. As someone who grew up in the heart of the GHB tradition, with the grips, the throws, the Scots Guards, the uniforms and the competitions, it didn't feel restrictive at all. It just was the culture inside which your own creativity found expression. In coming to Irish music and trying to learn something of it, relatively late in life, it's abundantly clear to me that there is just as much of a "right way" and a "wrong way", it's simply that it is not expressed through a relatively formal system of learning and tuition. And I do find it a bit sad that this debate is so often couched in the language of value judgements.
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