possible to make a recorder with a whistle head?

[dspmusik]

i know this is offensive territory for some , but would it be/why wouldn't it be possible to put a whistle head on a recorder body?
my thought is offering recording fingerings with the ability to overblow up the octave. is it just the whistle head that does that?
and while we're on the subject, what about the reverse, a recorder head on a whistle tube? i would then assume it would have recorder tone, but NOT be able to over blow the octave (or at least not controlably)
i look forward to seeing the links of where it's been done

[Feadoggie]

Haven't we been over this before? Maybe not.

The whistle and the recorder share the same noise making mechanism. The heads are quite the same in their purpose and function. The instrument's bore and the hole layout provide the real differences. Medieval recorders were very similar to whistles - cylindrical bore and simple fingerings. Things developed to the baroque layout and design over time. Each would of course be voiced to the particular instruments purpose but they are essentially the same mechanism. Look at the Susato product line. They use the same head design for whistles and recorders (single hole baroque fingering though).

Adler-Heinrich, prior to their demise, offered whistles with the same basic head design as their student recorder.

O'Riordan modeled his head layout on recorder head designs too.

And there are plenty of examples of home made PVC recorders to look at on the web. Google is your friend.

There's no reason that you could not mate a whistle head to a recorder body. Performance would of course be determined by how well you could match the head and body bores up.

And there is no reason you couldn't make a whistle that uses a recorder style fingering schema (Susato as an example). I personally prefer a chromatic fingering scheme that does not use forked fingerings - dedicated hole for each pitch. Seems more intuitive to me anyway.

What they sound (tone and timbre) like will depend on a variety of factors such as bore profile and head component dimensions.

Feadoggie

[megapop]

I believe the concept of the Susato Oriole is one head for any of their wind instruments, recorder, whistle and tabor. That said, it isn't the particular whistle mouthpiece which enables overblowing. Basically recorders can be overblown just as well, though they're designed to be overblown with support of the thumb hole, and therefore may sound shrill when forced into the upper registers without using it.

I just put a whistle mouthpiece on a recorder body, just to have a try (Meg-head fits on mine). Sounds like sh!t. And how does it look???!!! However, as the whistle head is much smaller, of course the hole spacings aren't correct anymore, so it isn't even in tune.

May I ask what kind of lousy recorder you play, that you have problems to get the upper register(s)? Usually 2,5 octaves should be possible easily.

[Kypfer]

This is a subject I've "played with", with various degrees of success. It's certainly possible to make an 8-hole whistle that fingers "more or less" like a recorder for most of the accidentals, but sounds like a whistle. That is to say, if you take the head off a Generation whistle, put it on a longer tube so it'll play C as it's lowest note (not very well!), drill it to give a diatonic D scale (including a hole for the RH little finger and a D# thumbhole), provided you keep the fingerholes small enough it'll sound "more or less" like a quiet Generation whistle, but play somewhat like a recorder.

Given that a recorder head would require a somewhat larger diameter tube than a whistle of similar pitch, it's unlikely that a cylindrical tube on a recorder head would give two full octaves (easily) ... this is why the recorder has developed with a tapered bore

[Peter Duggan]

i know this is offensive territory for some

Time we knocked this one on the head for ever... it's not (or, if it is, it's their problem, not yours)!

While whistles and recorders are clearly optimised for different repertoire and the recorder (being generally less appropriate to the intricacies of accepted trad conventions) is unlikely to join the core trad family, it's much better for some things and obsequious adherence to an assumed anti-recorder ethic helps nobody...

[Mr Ed]

....obsequious adherence...

That's why I switched to boxer shorts. No more adherence to my obsequious!

[fearfaoin]

my thought is offering recording fingerings with the ability to overblow up the octave. is it just the whistle head that does that?
and while we're on the subject, what about the reverse, a recorder head on a whistle tube? i would then assume it would have recorder tone, but NOT be able to over blow the octave (or at least not controlably)
i look forward to seeing the links of where it's been done

It wouldn't gain you anything. The recorder already
overblows the octave. The fingerings in the upper
octave are sometimes slightly different to get the
desired tone, but the head does the same work
when you overblow that the whistle head does.

[educciman]

Well, I have to work a little bit on that idea - but, have a look at my prototype:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_bhhOF3tbw

[Angel Shadowsong]

Nice Video Educciman.

I'm trying to analyze the sound.
To my ear, as the sound plays toward the higher notes, the sound becomes aclosely to a whistle... Lower notes tend to sound like a recorder.

Amazing experiment and playing skills. I guess it's the bell shape end, that creates the 'nasal' type of tone which a recorder has.

The term 'nasal' I used is the note that seemed to be clouded or covered, in comparison to the honk or stronger bell note that I expect.

Regards,

Angel

[ubizmo]

I'm a big fan of the Susato Oriole recorder for playing non-ITM without giving up the appealing whistle sound. Here's a demo: http://youtu.be/e8Pn9ekB8PA.

Some of the fingerings have to be discovered; the standard Baroque fingerings won't do what you want.

I have the four whistle bodies as well, in Eb, D, C and Bb. I find the D a bit disappointing. It's as if the head and diameter are optimized for C.

For those of us who want something like a recorder for music other than the usual recorder repertoire, the Oriole is very good, and Edduciman's latest invention looks very promising.

I'm not sure how much of the recorder's characteristic "nasal" sound is due to the conical bore versus the relatively thick walls and consequent "chimney" effect on the tone holes. Maybe neither. I'm guessing it's more about the thick wall construction, however, since conical bore whistles, like the Clarke Sweetone, still sound like whistles. Nevertheless, Edduciman's hybrid doesn't sound very recorder-ish to my ear.

[ickabod]

Well, I have to work a little bit on that idea - but, have a look at my prototype:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_bhhOF3tbw

That is incredible.. I really like the flavor that emanates from the instrument. It invokes more of a Celtic vibe than a Renaissance vibe.. If that makes any sense at all. Good work!

Please keeps folks posted as you progress

I realize aesthetics are probably at the lowest priority on your list to look at... But just for fun, I thought I would just mention that the prototype, as of right now, looks like a busted off wooden table leg that has a piece of metal protruding from the end..

[dspmusik]

thanks for posting both of those vids EuMan and Ubiz. both excellent, and what i was looking for.