Difference between tin whistle and Irish flute?

[Gordon]

No flame, really. As a flute player, I concede a certain whistle-deafness; in the same key, all whistles sound pretty much the same to me. There is, IMO, considerably less tonal variety possible from a fipple, even a very good fipple. Flutes come in many keys,so that distinction from whistles doesn't hold, either. The statement was that there was very little tonal differences (more homogenous was the term) between flutes, beyond the player. Simply not true. There is enormous variety in sound from different flute makers' flutes, whether from the wood or material used, the wide variety of possible embouchure shapes, subtle variations with similar embouchure cuts, hole sizes and bore size. And then there's the flute player(s), who each approach their flute playing differently, whether due to personal physical characteristics or the way they choose to approach tone production - none of which makes a bit of difference when playing a whistle.

So, no flame. Just calling out an inaccurate statement.

[brad maloney]

Yes, there are huge differences between flute makes and players; however, there's a difference between whistle makes too though.

Straight bored whistles like Generations, Oaks etc have a different quality than conical bored Clarkes and the wood fippled Clarkes use so much more air that things need to be phrased differently. But a whistle is a whistle, unless you physically tweak it, it's going to have one voice, where a flute can go from buzzy to sweet and quiet to loud.

The lack of dynamics makes a whistle more akin to piping to me, but dynamics really shouldn't be used when playing Irish trad anyway.

Uilleann piping techniques aren't impossible or unmusical on the flute - but it takes a lot of work to get them sounding good. The hard D is... well hard - you need to have total control of your embouchure. From there cranns can be added, and the rolls, doublings, smears, finger vibrato etc of pipers are part of fluting as I've always heard it.

Highland piping techniques don't translate as well on the flute because a flute is less responsive, a grace note which could be heard on GHP's just comes out as an interruption of the note on the flute (what fluters call a cut, not to different sounding from tonguing but with more flow), whistle is responsive enough to let the grace notes pop and be heard. Although I've never heard a GHPiper let loose on some highland piping tunes on a whistle.
Please post clipsI'd love to hear it.

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Besides a whistle being a whistle and a flute being a flute, the main differences in playing them that I've found so far is.
1. Backpressure - the whistle doesn't have any, I have to control my flow of breath... I think I do it with my diaphram? but never stopped to think about it. If you have a decent embouchure on the flute you're actually not using a ton of air but are focusing it like a laser at the spot that makes the sound you want. So it's the difference between exhaling through a big straw and a cocktail stirrer. I don't know if this makes any sense to anyone but me.

2. Intonation - on the flute you're constantly adjusting you're embrouchure and head postion to flatten or sharpen notes. On the whistle you need to adjust the flow of air to compensate, the upper octave is usually sharp, pull in the reigns. Also in general C# and D tend to be flat, the A and the cross fingered OXO XXX, OXX OOO etc C natural's tend to be sharp, half holing is the way to go, especially if it's a big long C natural.

3. Phrasing - I've found the whistlers I like best tend to phrase like uilleann pipers and use stops not just for breathing but for effect. Tonguing on the tinwhistle tends to cause vitriolic fits of aversion on this board, but if used sparingly and correctly adds a lot to a whistlers overall sound. In general the 'glottal stop' is preferred but isn't always so concise. Tonguing before rolls adds to them as does at the beginning and ending of phrases. I tend to like flute players that have long, uninterrupted lines of melody taking as few breaks as possible and using cuts and pats to articulate - stopping for a breath every measure breaks it up too much. but YMMV

4. Cranns - there's a school of thought that says never use them on the whistle, no matter what. Then there's the "If Seamus Ennis did it, I can too." I kind of fall into that school and will use low E and D cranns, sparingly but never in the high octave. I've been told by various ITMtrad police that D{(3FED-}D is the 'proper' way to ornament the D.

Outside of that... the main difference is about $1190 for one without keys and $4990 for one with keys.

[hans]

I better tread carefully here, this being the flute forum
And in no way did I mean to belittle flutes or flute players.
I am an amateur whistle and flute player, and I think I can appreciate both kinds of instrument, and the skills required to play them.
That said I respectfully care to differ on the issue of variety in tone and playing characteristics inherent in the instrument (not the players, that is a totally different subject).

As a flute player, I concede a certain whistle-deafness; in the same key, all whistles sound pretty much the same to me.

Conceding to a degree of "whistle deafness" does not help the observation. Whistles of the same key but from different makers do not sound the same. Just listen to the variety of tone.

There is, IMO, considerably less tonal variety possible from a fipple, even a very good fipple.

This is true for a single whistle: you cannot produce such a great variety of tone on one whistle as you can on one flute. But different whistles have different tone, and there is a great variety of tone to be found amongst the different makes of whistles. And this is (my main point), that the fipple design (apart from bore, tone holes etc) determines the tone to a great degree, and this is fixed, whereas a fluteplayer forms her own "fipple" with her embouchure, and can change this at will.

Flutes come in many keys,so that distinction from whistles doesn't hold, either.

Potentially one could make flutes in any key, just as whistles. But there is less variety of keys on offer from flute makers than from whistle makers. A keyed flute makes it possible to play in many keys, so the need for flutes in many keys does not exist. But you can proof me wrong on this. For instance one can get bansuri flutes in any key without difficulty.

The statement was that there was very little tonal differences (more homogenous was the term) between flutes, beyond the player. Simply not true. There is enormous variety in sound from different flute makers' flutes, whether from the wood or material used, the wide variety of possible embouchure shapes, subtle variations with similar embouchure cuts, hole sizes and bore size.

Yes, all that is there. As it is in whistles. Plus whistles have a windway and a window of fixed geometry, where the tone is to a high degree produced. Which makes whistles from different makers quite different, as each maker follows his own ideas of what he desires the whistle should sound.

And then there's the flute player(s), who each approach their flute playing differently, whether due to personal physical characteristics or the way they choose to approach tone production - none of which makes a bit of difference when playing a whistle.

I agree that a flute player has much more scope in tone production. A whistle player still has some scope though, not as much, as he is restricted by windway and window design.

[Gordon]

I'll agree to disagree. Strongly. My objection was over the statement that flutes were somehow homogenous, or more-so than whistles. Which is patently untrue, and why I stepped in and commented on the statement.

My self-deprecating nod to 'whistle deafness' was an attempt at diplomacy - my ears are quite good and, to me, whistles of the same pitch sound - to use a favorite word - more homogenous to one another than not. Certainly more-so than flutes.

Now, flute players making flutes sound homogenous is a completely different conversation, and a personal gripe of mine. I also believe there's a trend for modern makers to aim for that generic sound, but, again, another thread, for another day...

Best,
Gordon

[farmerjones]

Sheath your swords, gentlemen! Come, gather round, and drink some ale.

I'm sure you'd say that there is a difference in tone of a wooden versus an aluminum versus a PVC whistle. My ears aren't particularly good, but even they can tell a difference. Material used can make a very big difference in the sound. I think the main thing that (some) people here are saying is that it's possible to get more varied tones and varied volumes out of a flute than it is a whistle.

When I play a second octave A on my whistle, for example, it's very loud and there's not much I can do about it. If I don't give the appropriate amount of air pressure, the pitch drops an octave. Inversely, I can only play the first octave A so loud before it jumps up to the second octave. This differs from, say my trombone, where I can play several notes in first position (Bb, F, Bb, D, F, Bb) and have a pretty consistent volume across them, or even play lower notes more loudly than high notes, by changing my embouchure and not my airflow.

Btw, what is a "Crann"?

[MTGuru]

Sheath your swords, gentlemen! Come, gather round, and drink some ale.

No, no. I want to see them go at it with an aluminum low D versus a blackwood flute, mano a mano. A mighty clash of instruments - literally. And come to think of it, the more ale that's involved, the better.

What do we say to the god of musical death? Not today ...

[Gordon]

Sheath your swords, gentlemen! Come, gather round, and drink some ale.

I'm sure you'd say that there is a difference in tone of a wooden versus an aluminum versus a PVC whistle. My ears aren't particularly good, but even they can tell a difference. Material used can make a very big difference in the sound. I think the main thing that (some) people here are saying is that it's possible to get more varied tones and varied volumes out of a flute than it is a whistle.

Btw, what is a "Crann"?

Sword sheathed.

But...

Of course, there's a difference in tone between whistles made from different materials, conical or cylindrical. Same for flutes, unless the argument was only between all possible whistles to only modern wooden conical flutes made specifically for ITM. Then, sure... So, we've left out Delrin flutes, cylindrical flutes, Boehm system flutes of either silver or wood, antique English conicals, French, German or American made antique flutes, Charanga flutes, Baroque flutes... Well, then, yeah. Whistles have much more variation...

Oh. Not sheathed... hmm.. how'd that happen.

[Gordon]

Oh, yeah... a cran... It's a kind of berry. Very tart, grows in a bog, which is why old tunes are called bog-standard.

[Mr.Gumby]

Cranns - there's a school of thought that says never use them on the whistle, no matter what. Then there's the "If Seamus Ennis did it, I can too." I kind of fall into that school and will use low E and D cranns, sparingly but never in the high octave. I've been told by various ITMtrad police that D{(3FED-}D is the 'proper' way to ornament the D.

Well, Willie Clancy did them .

At least on the whistle occasionally. I am only aware of a very small number of recordings of his flute playing but he may well have used them there too, but not when he was recorded.

Stylistically speaking I like different instruments emphasise their strong points and own styles. All the carrying over of ornaments quite specific to one instrument too another makes things a bit too homogenous maybe.

And FWIW, Crann is Irish for tree. For those wishing to branch out.

[farmerjones]

Oh, yeah... a cran... It's a kind of berry. Very tart, grows in a bog, which is why old tunes are called bog-standard.

So, a crann is an old tune?

[hans]

Oh, yeah... a cran... It's a kind of berry. Very tart, grows in a bog, which is why old tunes are called bog-standard.

So, a crann is an old tune?

Maybe this helps:
http://www.reocities.com/feadanach/ornamentation2.html

The Crann:

Because it's impossible to play a roll on D on the pipes, it has its own ornament: the crann. Legend has it that this technique was adapted to the flute by Matt Molloy; listening to his albums is probably the best way to hear how it sounds on the flute. Cranns are a bit more difficult than rolls, and they can sound muddled if they're not precise. Many accomplished flute players never use them.

The basic idea of the crann is to break up a long D by inserting two or three cuts, each with a different finger. Different players might use different fingers for the cuts, or do them in a different order. The important thing is for the rhythm of the ornament to be as precise as possible.

[farmerjones]

Oh, that helps. I thought it was still called a roll. Yea, that one is hard. =P