Improvisation.

[oleorezinator]

Hey Charlie! How did we forget James Rivers?!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6OPGnUJ ... ata_player

[john]

one of the things i find most exciting in a tune is not knowing where the player is going to go at any moment, and what makes it even more exciting is if the player themself doesn't know until a split second before they do it

i find that there are a great number of phrases that occur again and again in tunes which is helpful as it means you have a headstart and are not having to deal with something completely new to you

i've been doing a lot busking recently which is good practice as you have to try to vary what you are playing to make it interesting for yourself - i think that perhaps this is one of the reasons johnny doran had such superlative improvisational abilities

[ennischanter]

I agree, I really enjoy Seamus Ennis and Tommy Reck for that very reason.

[oleorezinator]

Speaking of abominations, here's a perfect example
of someone who is rhythmically impaired to the
extreme when he steps away from what he's used to
playing. Way too much on the beat whereas a rock, blues,
jazz or funk player would be playing behind the beat to varying
degrees. It's as bad as a classical player trying to play traditional
music, jazz, blues etc. A brilliant player to my ears if he sticks to
the stuff that he's familiar with though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMv0QxyV ... ata_player

The drummers don't help the picture either. Their playing is all over
the place. Very sloppy overstated and in the way of the groove.

[benhall.1]

Speaking of abominations, here's a perfect example
of someone who is rhythmically impaired to the
extreme when he steps away from what he's used to
playing. Way too much on the beat whereas a rock, blues,
jazz or funk player would be playing behind the beat to varying
degrees. It's as bad as a classical player trying to play traditional
music, jazz, blues etc. A brilliant player to my ears if he sticks to
the stuff that he's familiar with though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMv0QxyV ... ata_player

The drummers don't help the picture either. Their playing is all over
the place. Very sloppy overstated and in the way of the groove.

Sounded OK to me, at least as a novelty. The piper was doing stuff that fitted, but admittedly didn't sound idiomatic, either in terms of the pipes, or the medium of jazz. But I'd have accepted that, as an audience member in a live context. The drummers too were, admittedly, somewhat rigid, and seemed to glue the thing into too much of a 'boxed in' pattern, to my ears at least. But again, if I'd been in the audience, I don't think I'd have noticed that - I would have enjoyed the piece as a bit of fun, and something a bit different in the mix.

I suppose I'm saying that I kind of agree with you, Mr Nator, but I think you may be being a bit picky. It would have been fun in context.

[Brazenkane]

I. Because in a monophonic tradition like Irish trad, there's no inherent chord progression. .

As an improviser (on an instrument aside from pipes), I find it interesting to read these posts. It's much like reading posts about reed making. There's a certain amount of information that one could hang their hat on, and the rest of the comments are more or less, conjecture (usually more than less, too!). The deeper the author tries to get the more fuzzy things are.

I put that quote above because that is debatable. Master improviser (fiddler) James Kelly actually can visualize, hear, and think of the chord progression while the line is occurring. Mind you, it's not just one chord progression either. As when improvising, there are a multitude of ways to go w/the line, just as there are more than one possible progression. Aside from that thought process, there are others going on such as, "what is a response that operates w.in the tradition," etc. All this happens at "thought-speed." There's more to this and a thesis could be written on it, but I will refrain (luck you!).

After interviewing many traditional players about their approach to improvisation within the idiom, I've come to realize that James is a rare , if not unique. Essentially, borne out of his own necessity for exploration, he intuitively approaches improvisation in a way that is very Jazz-like, while utilizing a traditional vocabulary.

Therefore, I feel improvisation can be done thinking harmonically. The question is whether or not that is your calling?

[Brazenkane]

I. Because in a monophonic tradition like Irish trad, there's no inherent chord progression. .

As an improviser (on an instrument aside from pipes), I find it interesting to read these posts. It's much like reading posts about reed making. There's a certain amount of information that one could hang their hat on, and the rest of the comments are more or less, conjecture (usually more than less, too!). The deeper the author tries to get the more fuzzy things are.

I put that quote above because it is simply not fact.

Master improviser (fiddler) James Kelly can visualize, hear, and think of the chord progression while the line is occurring, and base his improvisation (partly) off that. Mind you, it's not just one magic chord progression that goes with each tune. Just as there are . a multitude of ways to go w/the line, just as there are more than one possibility of a chord progression.

Aside from that thought process, there are others elements working in tandem. All this happens in real-time. There's more to this and a thesis could be written on it, but I will refrain (lucky you!).

After interviewing many master traditional players about their approach to improvisation (within the a traditional idiom), I've come to realize that James is a rare, if not unique traditional musician. Essentially, borne out of his own necessity for exploration, he intuitively approaches improvisation in a way that is very Jazz-like, while utilizing a traditional vocabulary.

Some might say, "Oh well, he's not a piper, so it's irrelevant." Again, that would be terribly misinformed to say. An instrument is just that. Improvisation, and tunes for that matter could be played on anything, just as improvisation can happen on any instrument. Also, I won't embark on such a defense either, it's just not necessary (and it's pointless)!

Therefore and finally (lucky you, again!), I feel improvisation can be done thinking melodically, andharmonically.

The question is whether or not that is your calling?

[oleorezinator]

Speaking of abominations, here's a perfect example
of someone who is rhythmically impaired to the
extreme when he steps away from what he's used to
playing. Way too much on the beat whereas a rock, blues,
jazz or funk player would be playing behind the beat to varying
degrees. It's as bad as a classical player trying to play traditional
music, jazz, blues etc. A brilliant player to my ears if he sticks to
the stuff that he's familiar with though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMv0QxyV ... ata_player

The drummers don't help the picture either. Their playing is all over
the place. Very sloppy overstated and in the way of the groove.

Sounded OK to me, at least as a novelty. The piper was doing stuff that fitted, but admittedly didn't sound idiomatic, either in terms of the pipes, or the medium of jazz. But I'd have accepted that, as an audience member in a live context. The drummers too were, admittedly, somewhat rigid, and seemed to glue the thing into too much of a 'boxed in' pattern, to my ears at least. But again, if I'd been in the audience, I don't think I'd have noticed that - I would have enjoyed the piece as a bit of fun, and something a bit different in the mix.

I suppose I'm saying that I kind of agree with you, Mr Nator, but I think you may be being a bit picky. It would have been fun in context.

Mr. Hall I am very picky and I do agree that it is fun.
 And a bit of fun indeed and a respite from the staid,
rigid world of highland piping for those players.
I was using his performance to contrast Rufus Harley's playing.
Same instrument, same 9 notes but totally different concepts.
When the red hot guy plays traditionally it's dead on but when he
ventures outside as in this case it sounds wooden and amateurish at best.
The drummers are in each others way and in the way of the groove
which is in the funk realm. The pipe and rock stuff they play just fine
but that funk groove is a mess. You'd think that with the high level
of playing they would have the good musical sense to steer clear of 
that tune. Stylistically, here's an example of three drummers laying it down. 
Thanks, o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3fICAvB ... ata_player

[oleorezinator]

I. Because in a monophonic tradition like Irish trad, there's no inherent chord progression. .

Therefore and finally (lucky you, again!), I feel improvisation can be done thinking melodically, andharmonically.

Absolutamente oh Brazen one!

[ennischanter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enBdy5D_vVI


Start at 5:25!

[john]

mr mcclaren's piping is better than his accent

[Brazenkane]

kinda bummed this post go hijacked into the the land of crapsville!

[ennischanter]

kinda bummed this post go hijacked into the the land of crapsville!

Aw come on! I was just being silly! I saw oleo bring up the red hot chili pipers, and it made me think of that video. (Don't ask why!)

[CHasR]

analytically, 'strict trad' ITM, in my estimation, is mostly heterophonic. the pressing question is: how deeply is harmonic motion inferred by the melodic texture, in any given setting??

I highly doubt RHCP think this deeply about their arrangements. For all the lightning fingers, its mostly a pastiche of stock chord prog's, under a pipe tune, against a rock beat. Battlefield Band broke that ground. Sure, everything fits tight, hot & clean, the RHCP formula certainly works, and to tinker with it they'd be fools: but the pallette is very small even compared with most jazz improv.

By contrast, only more experienced players (Cheiftains, Clannad, DeDannan, Tannahill weavers, maybe Capercaillie, for ex) seem to be able to readily access and apply a *complimentary* amount of harmonic colour beneath the heteromelodic texture. Last thing im offering is, that its often what is >left-out... of any harmonic action, that is the vital element, especially so when incorporating a bagpipe.
Jazz Badger. Wondering. Do they change the title to Jazz Possum when in the US?

[john]

i find it useful to be able to identify what chord a phrase might belong to when working out variations, even though as has been said, different chords might be implied for the same notes

i've seen a lot of transcriptions by the london music teacher brendan mulkere and he uses arpeggios all over the place to add variation

there's something i wanted to ask on a related theme - when you have a tune in a given key that seems to have different parts based around different chords, is it correct to say that, for instance, the first part is in g and the second is in e minor as though the tune has changed key - take the dublin reel that is in d but where the second part is based around an a chord, or the fermoy lasses that is e minor but where the second part is based on a g chord