Sam Murray and Flute Deliveries?

[Mr.Gumby]

I have reconsidered after reading this post and no matter how nice his flutes are I will not deal with the man if this is the way he does business. I understand there's two sides of every story, but when several people have lost their money or flutes or both, I have no trouble saying this.

I think the discussion is turning a corner at this point and going in a direction it shouldn't without thoroughly knowing the details of both sides of the story.

I think most people who have met Sam will agree he's a lovely guy who pours his heart into the instruments he makes. Some here who know him better than I do, I only bought a flute off him, have referred to him as an artist, one with the temperament maybe that sometimes goes with that. I know a few makers of instruments, uilleann pipemakers mostly, and have seen the pressures dealing with customers puts on them. It's not something conducive to the state of mind needed to concentrate on making instruments and while different people respond to this in different ways, none of them respond well to this side of the trade.

Personally I don't think there's deliberate malice on Sam's part. But if'd say we're dealing with someone who doesn't react well to pressure I would probably project too much of myself into that statement so I won't risk speculating one way or another.

I can say I am not a big fan at all of a trial by internet.

I have seen the situation Steampacket finds himself in develop from the day he set out to Galway to drop off the flute for repair and an offer to collect the flute for him, if a time/date for collection was arranged, has been standing since a few months after that drop off. I hope this will get resolved. That's as much as I, or anyone else, can say about this.

[Lars Larry Mór Mott]

I wouldn't turn down a brilliant instrument regardless if the maker has anger management problems, ADHD, Altzheimers or whatever..
What i mean to say is, if you decide never to buy a Murray flute regardless of who you buy it from, it's your loss.
I know/of appalling makers of several different instruments, some of them making instruments i would love to own. In my case i separate the product from the maker. I wouldn't pass on a fantastic instrument because the maker is a unreliable gob**ite. (I haven't had bad experience/s personally with Sam, but with other makers)
Just my .2€

[Ketil]

I really dont see the discussion turning any other way than it already has because I have decided not to order a flute by Sam Murray. I would absolutely consider buing a used Murray flute and I have no reason to say he not a nice guy, but my point was that when all I have to rely on when ordering a flute from any given maker in any given country is the reputation of the flutemaker. The only way for me to get a sense of the reputation is to read on the internet and talk to people with the same interest in flutes as I have.. In my case that would be none.. I have no other way to decide whose flute to order than to read threads like this. When I read lots of positive feedback from other flutemakers it is just good sense for me to order from one of those.
I will probably buy and sell a few more used flutes before I decide to invest a lot of money in a custom built flute. That said, I would love to own a Murray flute.. just not order a new one from him.

Ketil

[monkeymonk]

[quote]I think the discussion is turning a corner at this point and going in a direction it shouldn't without thoroughly knowing the details of both sides of the story.[quote]

Yes and no. I haven't had many years experience with trad forums and instruments on the internet but i haven't yet heard the same number or degree of stories about any other flute maker as i have heard about this man.

http://thesession.org/discussions/26721
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=72647

I have had no dealings with him whatsoever but i rely on both my reasoning skills and what people are saying to inform my decisions. I would never go only by what people that i don't know say about something but i do rely on forums like this to inform my decisions.


From what I have read on the internet:

1. Sam Murray is a great person and wonderful to have a conversation with

2. He is a brilliant instrument maker, one of the best in the world.

3. He has a very serious problem that is preventing him from conducting buisness the way he would like to and anyone that does not know him intimately can not comment with any accuracy on what that problem is and from what i have read, no one really does which is a good thing.


4. He best keeps buisness contracts when ordering new instruments locally and meeting him in person.

5. Ordering one of his flutes from afar is much less reliable but possible if you are very patient with maybe the possibility of visiting his shop to pick it up.

6. Having him repair an instrument is not a good idea at all unless you don't mind never seeing your flute or money again.

Discussions like this can be helpful because they have to do with the buisness side of things.

[Gordon]

The lesson? It is generally best to deal close to home.

This is the greatest truth I have ever seen on here. I have had some bad experiences trying out flutes by the "great" makers across the pond. Some cases ended up in stolen money and others with firewood quality instruments. I'm sticking to makers over here. Between John Gallagher and the Olwells I have no reason to look elsewhere I just learned it the hard way.

Just wanted to point out that, in my admittedly limited dealings with overseas makers, all have been perfectly professional experiences, with no more hitches than I might have had with a local maker. My first new flute was a Hamilton and Hammy was easy to reach, answered questions when I had them, and the flute came in only a few weeks beyond the anticipated date. Subsequent experiences with different makers were similarly wonderful.

A large portion of us do not live nearby our maker(s) of choice and ordering/working with a maker far away is the only practical way to get the right flute. Unfortunate experiences with one Mr. Murray should not influence purchasing decisions about other makers in his region or elsewhere. So, the fact that a single maker (how many threads over the years have we had regarding Mr. Murray's business dealings?) is questionable should not impede trade with all the other wonderful makers across the globe, whether in Ireland, Britain, France, Australia, or anywhere else.

Whatever Mr. Murray's actual story is, enough caution has been aired to warrant hesitation dealing with him - Truth is, he probably has enough loyal patrons to stay in business without overseas orders. Regarding his flutes themselves, the few I've played have been incredible. Had I the money, I'd snatch a used Murray in a heartbeat - that boxwood is a beauty, David! - but, personally, I wouldn't order from the man himself.

[Kirk B]

Whatever the absolute truth may be, these threads do have an economic effect. In September of 2011 I purchased a 6-keyed flute. At that time I had been wooed by the sound of Sam's flutes and wanted one in the worst way. After reading many threads on this board and hearing that:

• Glenn Watson's flutes were of a similar design
• There were many good reports of dealing with Glenn
• There were many not-so-good reports of dealing with Sam

I bought the Watson instead and have been very happy with it. When I saw that Sam had a new web site and it looked like he was getting more serious about the business, I pondered maybe ordering a keyless just to have another flute and to see how it compared. I can safely say at this point that that's not going to happen. Sad really.

Kirk

[LorenzoFlute]

Glenn Watson's flutes were of a similar design

Not sure about the actual dimentions of bore and holes, but they sound really different!

[Kirk B]

Glenn Watson's flutes were of a similar design

Not sure about the actual dimentions of bore and holes, but they sound really different!

I've never played a Murray so I can't judge from personal experience. I based that on what I read in somer older threads floating around here. They did mention that the Watson has a "darker" (here we go again) sound and I can hear that based on recordings that I've heard.

Kirk

[Ronnie]

I don't know Sam personally but I have a friend who ordered a six keyed flute and got it eventually a bit later than he should get it. He is happy with the flute. I think Sam is a bit of a "victim"of his succes. He is a good flute maker and from what I hear all his customers get their flute eventually. I sympathise with the ones who aren't so happy but on this forum and the internet as a whole we can't fully judge or understand what has gone wrong. My advice would be to sit down with the maker if you have a problem. For what I understand Mr. Murray is a gentleman and willing to listen. If I would want a Murray flute, I wouldn't hesitate to order but would first talk to Sam and ask him about delivery times and just wait. All depends on how fast you would want a flute. Putting him under pressure wouldn't help I think. My two cents...

[libraryman]

Ronnie, That's a nice reasonable response. But no one is complaining that they've had to wait longer than was estimated. People understand that a maker as respected as Sam Murray is likely to get backed up. What they don't understand is why he won't return a flute given to him for repair or why he would send out a message saying "your flute is ready except for a rings problem" and then leave you hanging. Those things are not right and venting here a bit is pretty understandable. Will it help me get a flute faster.? I hardly think so! But I am 63 and past the point of thinking to myself, "be smart, say nothing." Sure, I'd love to have had a Murray, but I have a couple of nice flutes and I'll enjoy them while I can. Everyone who knows Sam seems to like him a lot and everyone seems to agree he is very dedicated to his craft. I bear no ill will and wish the man the best. With that, I'll retire from this thread. Maybe I'll start a new one on whether it is better to put a flute together turning the parts clockwise or counter-clockwise. (Just kidding).

[Flutered]

I think 'monkeymonk' summed up the situation well above, perhaps leaving aside point 6..

Not that the issue of not returning work is not serious etc., but may hopefully only be isolated incidences.

Points 1-5 are on the button though, the way I read it.

[Steampacket]

Lots of good points in this thread from Mr. Gumby, money monk, library man, flutered, Gordon and others.
Moneymonk's no. 6 is very relevant in my case, cquick's and the flute player who visited Sam 2 weeks ago to collect our flutes and his own flute that were left for repair. Sam couldn´t produce them.

All I want/wanted is/was my flute back, unrepaired it doesn't matter, I'll tape it, or leave it with Chris Wilkes, Martin Doyle, or Hammy, for example.

Sam makes good flutes, some are exceptionally good. He is very interesting to talk to and extremely knowledgeable about flutes, Irish traditional music and musicians. If I didn't have a flute and a used Murray flute was up for sale I´d be interested, but I would never leave an instrument to Sam for repair, or order a flute from him.

Sam won't communicate via the net or mobile now it seems, and his website is down. I hope he sees this thread, or that someone shows it to him or tells him about it. It would be good if Sam explained his side of things but I doubt that will ever happen. I've calmed down now, time to move on. Life's too short. Libraryman I'm 65, and still working as a music librarian so rock on and all the best

[Akiba]

I agree with you, SteamP. Sam's behavior is piss poor and inexcusable.; shocking, really. Unheard of. Goes way beyond cultural differences in the ways of doing business. That's just being criminally negligent. You deserve compensation. Hope it all works out in the end.

[jim stone]

Second this.

[Flexismart]

Considering all of the handwringing going on in this thread, it seems that one should never give a flute to Sam if you expect him to fix it for you. From the anecdotal evidence here that seems fairly clear.

If you live in his region and want to buy a new flute from him and are comfortable with paying an advance for it, you'll probably do OK. If you live abroad, it seems wise to spend the extra money to take a trip, go to his shop, and talk about the flute you want him to make for you. For players, flutes are lifetime instruments, not investments. You'll only recover your money if you are lucky, but the pleasure of playing a good one is priceless.

That said, (and going in a sort of circle on this thread), if you are really interested in buying a flute of Sam's and you want to avoid the pitfalls of others, look up Davey (AKA Julia Delaney). He invited my friends and me, who were on a session tour of Clare and Kerry, to come to his house and try out several flutes - some Murrays and Olwells. It was pure pleasure to sit around and compare these instruments - and to hear Davey's stories of where they came from. Sure, you may pay a little more than Sam's quoted prices, but to have the chance to play 8 or 10 of these instruments was extraordinary, and well worth it. Even though I didn't buy one (I play Hamiltons), I am wiser for the experience. He likely will have a few Murrays or Olwells on hand - or know where he can get them.

For the US based players, I believe Davey spends part of the year stateside. This is a great service for flute players. He is a fine gentleman who will deliver the goods, and no doubt have a story to tell about what you're receiving.


From Page 3

Julia Delaney:
Should anybody still be reading this woeful thread, I am selling a beautiful Sam Murray 6-key boxwood flute with an ivory end-cap, in the key of D. The keys, the slide and the rings are silver. It is about two years old and it is like new. No warps, cracks, or chips. Comes in the case that Sam provides. Has a hard edge but retains the sweetness of aged boxwood. Also note that the blocks are in place to have the two bottom keys added. This is a terrific flute from a wonderful maker.

Postage within the EU would be €15. I will be coming to the US in two weeks. I could bring it over then and post it from within for about $25.