The right finger position

[Tilori]

I have been learning the pipes for about one and a half year but still have problems covering all the holes of the chanter correctly. I am generally able to get a good seal at first but my fingers move from the desired position during playing. Thus I get a lot of squeaks and sometimes even need to stop playing because my fingers just won't go in the right position anymore. This happens at every playing tempo when (for me difficult) ornamentation or high second octave notes are involved.
I tried to practice very slowly and concentrated on relaxing my hands. This helped a bit but the problem did not go away.

I think this is my number one problem, which prevents me from making further progress. Sometimes everything works decently but often it gets so frustrating that I need to postpone my practice to the next day. I read, that it generally takes a few weeks to a few months to get the finger position right but I have been playing for a bit longer so I wonder if there is something I am doing totally wrong.

So did you learn “the grip” really fast or did you practice it somehow? If you did practice it, how did you do it? Also I would be open to any suggestions on what could be causing my problem and how to prevent my finger slides from happening.

[Mr.Gumby]

Check your playing posture, make sure you sit comfortably and relaxed and that your bag/pipes stay in position (i.e. not moving and changing the angle of your chanter). Related to those, bag position, length of bellow/bag connection, length of the bag and angle of chanter, in other words, are the pipes properly fitted to you body size. Other than that I suppose, practice and patience.

[bobkeenan]

I have been learning the pipes for about one and a half year but still have problems covering all the holes of the chanter correctly. I am generally able to get a good seal at first but my fingers move from the desired position during playing. Thus I get a lot of squeaks and sometimes even need to stop playing because my fingers just won't go in the right position anymore. This happens at every playing tempo when (for me difficult) ornamentation or high second octave notes are involved.
I tried to practice very slowly and concentrated on relaxing my hands. This helped a bit but the problem did not go away.

I think this is my number one problem, which prevents me from making further progress. Sometimes everything works decently but often it gets so frustrating that I need to postpone my practice to the next day. I read, that it generally takes a few weeks to a few months to get the finger position right but I have been playing for a bit longer so I wonder if there is something I am doing totally wrong.

So did you learn “the grip” really fast or did you practice it somehow? If you did practice it, how did you do it? Also I would be open to any suggestions on what could be causing my problem and how to prevent my finger slides from happening.

Any progress on this. I get the same problem and I am about a year into playing. To compound my issue is that I have dry skin and a bit of arthritis going for me. The squeaking and squawking are usually on the right hand fingers and its when that hand gets tired. I have found that a small amount of bag balm helps some with the dry finger problem. And I have started doing hand stretches and warm ups which help with the arthritis and seems to allow me to play a bit longer. But once those fingers get tired, and I am usually not relaxed at that point, I leak and squeak. My thought is that time will build my hand strength and as I learn to relax and only apply just enough pressure to close a hole that the squeaks will stop.

[Hans-Joerg]

I think what Mr. Gumby wrote most important: Make sure that it is NOT your grip that holds the chanter into your "desired personal" playing position but your GEAR - neck length, bag size, bag material , bellows ("quality")... (it goes without saying that you schould sit upright [eat up your vegetables and close the toilet lid ..]).
Another thing that might be worth thinking about is the style of playing preferred today:
I think you firstly learn to make a sound on the chanter. It might be worthwhile to firstly learn covering the holes (full pressure without making the LEAST sound/f*rt) If you integrate more "closed style elements" into your playing your fingering gets a more "automatical control".

[Tilori]

Thanks for your advice. I think this is a really hard problem to solve by myself. I am not sure if my playing position is the best it can get. Sometimes I feel, that there could be some improvements but most of the time I don't notice any problems. Most of the things which were mentioned are very difficult to actually test. Changing the bag requires work and is costly, especially if the old one was better from the beginning. Gluing a piece of brass tubing in the chanter stock is permanent. I would only do any of this, if I knew for sure it would bring an improvement.

What makes this problem so frustrating is, that it is the only one I can't really seem to improve on. Of course, I still have some other issues with the finger movement itself, but they are noticeably getting better.
I am having about the same problems as Bob. At first I can seal the chanter just fine (most of the time) but then it gets worse. I often feel, that the mistakes while playing ornamentation like rolls or staccato notes, are caused by leaks.
For me, the pinkie finger of my right hand is the biggest problems. I don't have particularly small hand but my fingers are pretty slim so I have to hit every hole absolutely in the right place.
But I can cover the holes correctly, the chanter stays silent even with higher pressure, my problem occurs during playing.

I have been trying to practice very slowly and concentrate on the places where my fingers go. I also try to monitor my playing position during this slow practice. This actually helps a bit, but I am still unsure what is causing my problem. I can not rule anything out, maybe it is my playing position, fatigue or I might just need a bit more practice.
This is still very much dependent on my daily form, often is is not that dramatic, but as this seemed to be a problem that most people seem to solve pretty early I was interested in some possible solutions.

[tommykleen]

This question needs to be asked, and I don't mean to be insulting: are you trying to cover the holes with your finger tips? I used to in my early, post-clarinet chanter-playing days. And every now and then you see a shot of an old piper doing this. Somehow people make this work, but I'd advise against it.

[Tilori]

This question needs to be asked, and I don't mean to be insulting: are you trying to cover the holes with your finger tips? I used to in my early, post-clarinet chanter-playing days. And every now and then you see a shot of an old piper doing this. Somehow people make this work, but I'd advise against it.

No, I am hopefully using a proper grip. I never tried to cover the holes with my finger tips. At the beginning I had a lesson with Tom Kannmacher and he did not notice anything wrong with my grip. I am thinking of getting a lesson again, but the drive is pretty long without a car.

[bobkeenan]

While we are on the subject of finger position.... I took an image of some hands on the internet and examined where I put my fingers and using PS put a black circle precisely where the holes are with my grip..... although when I get tired who knows where my fingers go. But does this look about right or should you always be on a non-joint pad area of the finger. I am on or close to a joint crease on a couple notes.

[bensdad]

A picture like that could be useful, but yours isn't I'm afraid.

If you're right-handed:

LH third finger, pad of last joint (not crease as in pic., and not tip of finger)
RH little finger, pad of last joint (not crease as in pic., and not tip of finger)

These are your two anchor points, adjust the rest while keeping these fixed, and avoid joint creases and fingertips.
So many variations in hand shape that it's silly to be more specific than that.

[Cathy Wilde]

Is the skin on your hands very dry? If so, try some sort of moisturizer or Bag Balm to help you seal the toneholes more easily.

Also, be sure you're sitting correctly. When Paddy Keenan showed me the right position, things literally fell into place for me. Pretend you're posing for a statue in the piper's gallery and let the chanter sort of "balance" or "hang" between the bag neck and your dropped knee (dropping your chanter knee lower is important!). Your thumbs and hands provide a little side-to-side stability and just rest along the stick. Ever since he pointed this out I've been paying attention, and I've seen that many super-good pipers are barely "holding" the chanter at all.

To me, PK has about the most wonderful relaxed grip I've ever seen, and I think you can hear it in his playing. It does help that he has monster mitts, but still.





Good luck!

[bobkeenan]

Wow, I had not noticed that before. Paddy almost rests his left hand on his left leg and he pops off the top side of the leg. I just tried that and it felt very strange. I could not find a bag/bellows position where the chanter would stay near that position ,on its own, unless I pulled the bag forward and haunched over. I may have to wait till I meet Paddy to do it his way.

I started looking at other well known pipers and the chanter position does vary some from being near vertical to leaning all the way over like Paddy's. I also saw some pipers using the first pad of their fingers between the tip and first joint.

But I will try to get the chanter down at more of an angle. It did seem to make the right hand fingers easier but it also made the left a tiny more difficult. I will have to find my ideal angle.

BTW Cathy... nice picture in the new An Piobaire bi-monthly. It looks like you are having fun at the ST. Louis Tionol.

[Tom_S]

I could not find a bag/bellows position where the chanter would stay near that position ,on its own, unless I pulled the bag forward and haunched over.

Have a look at this discussion (starts about 8 posts down) regarding Joey Abarta's bag extension:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=56721

I was talking to two local pipers recently and they've both recently visited the local hardware store and bought some plastic hose to add some extra length to the neck of their bags with great success. might be worth a shot if you want to experiment.

(BTW I just bought joey's CD and its incredible!)

[Cathy Wilde]

And of course, you have to factor in the long bass bar on full sets that are so equipped, and the bag neck length, too. OTOH, my bag neck is so long I have to use a strap! But I found it so important to understand that "the grip" isn't a death grip; it's a balancing act. From there, my biggest key to approaching the relaxed ideal is being sure to sit on the edge of my chair and drop that right knee. Of course, I don't always do it, but when I do there's a real difference. And doing it religiously for a few months after Paddy showed me made finding & covering the toneholes much easier. No more stretching the fingers!

re: the photo ... Hey, thanks, Bob. Jim had offered to let me try out some new regulators he's making these days (he's still tinkering), and told me to play a tune. I unthinkingly launched into something rather unreg-friendly, so Jim was totally guessing at the accompaniment. It was hilarious. I'm lucky to know such a great guy and pipemaker!

The St. Louis Tionol really is terrific. It and the Northeast Tionol are my two learning opps for the year, and I think I would starve to death without them. If you're anywhere near California, Minnesota, Missouri, Texas, Florida, Toronto, or New York (and there are others I'm missing, I'm sure -- my apologies!) I highly recommend finding out about the tionol that various piper's groups host there.

A weekend of real hands-on experience with other pipers *will* make a world of difference.

P.S. YES! Joey's CD is brilliant! Great tunes, great settings, great playing --

[Tilori]

Have a look at this discussion (starts about 8 posts down) regarding Joey Abarta's bag extension:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=56721

I was talking to two local pipers recently and they've both recently visited the local hardware store and bought some plastic hose to add some extra length to the neck of their bags with great success. might be worth a shot if you want to experiment.

(BTW I just bought joey's CD and its incredible!)

This interests me, how do you put the plastic hose in the chanter stock? Is it a permanent adjustment?

[bobkeenan]

Have a look at this discussion (starts about 8 posts down) regarding Joey Abarta's bag extension:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=56721

I was talking to two local pipers recently and they've both recently visited the local hardware store and bought some plastic hose to add some extra length to the neck of their bags with great success. might be worth a shot if you want to experiment.

(BTW I just bought joey's CD and its incredible!)

This interests me, how do you put the plastic hose in the chanter stock? Is it a permanent adjustment?

I am curious about this myself. I am imagining 1/4" copper or 5/16" hobby brass with hemp inserted into the chanter stock and then 1/4" tubing or other from the inserted metal to the chanter???? Would love to see how someone has done this is a picture?