Playing by ear vs learning by ear

[Tjones]

So, for some time now I’ve been taking an Irish session class, where the teacher believes in total emersion in learning the tunes (no sheet music). He makes CDs where he’ll plays a set of tunes at session pace, or close to it, then breaks the set into individual tunes, slowed down to learn (I think he’s got about 38 CDs and counting). Each class session lasts 8 weeks, each week of the class we “learn” one set of two to three tunes. I go home put on the head phones and play along with CD. Playing the set over and over until I can play it at the session speed.

My problem arises in that I need to hear the tune to play it. Kinda like sheet music for my ears. I can only start and play through a hand full of tunes on my own, but if I’m playing with someone and if it’s a tune I’ve work on, no problem playing along.(just finished CD #30) With my flute, I listen, follow and anticipate. I feel my playing is satisfactory on the tunes I keep current.

Where I’m struggling is I just started playing the pipes. They are much louder then my flute, and I’m not hearing the tunes well enough to follow, so it’s hard to anticipate whats coming next, which makes it hard for me to play with others.

I’ve learned to play by ear, but I’m not “learning” the tunes by ear, where I can play them solo. Even on tunes I "know" I struggle with the pipes because I'm trying to listen to the others.

Just thought I open this up for discussion, it’s been on my mind for some time.

Tjones

[Sirchronique]

Perhaps you need to be slowing down and learning the tunes completely, instead of learning a full set in a week where you can't even play the tunes on your instrument on your own.

If you can't just pick up an instrument and play the tune, then you didn't learn the tune. Maybe you should slow down and learn them more carefully, until you can play it without needing anything other than the instrument you are playing it on.


Of course playing with others is invaluable towards learning... but, if you can't just play the tune when you want, then you are not learning the tunes.

Actually, I'm not sure if I understand what you are saying when you say that you can't play it unless you are playing with other people. Do you mean you need to hear it right before you play it? Or..? Can you please elaborate on this?

I can only start and play through a hand full of tunes on my own

Whatever you did with those tunes, is what should be done with all of the tunes. There isn't much point in cramming in a full set of tunes each week that you can't play at will. It might be better to just start with one tune and devote all of your efforts to learning it properly before moving onto anything else, regardless of how much time it takes. I'm no expert, but this is just what makes sense.

[monkey587]

I am not a fan of the idea of a session class, but if you have learned to play along competently at a session on tunes you know, then I would say mission accomplished. The session class has taught you how to play at a session, now you're ready to move on.

If you want to be able to start tunes and play them on your own, at some point you have to just start playing them on your own. There's no way around this. If you want to be able to play at 'session speed,' at some point you have to stop learning them slowly and start learning them at session speed. There's no way around this either. Neither are nearly as hard as they are made out to be, but they take time.

[Tjones]

Actually, I'm not sure if I understand what you are saying when you say that you can't play it unless you are playing with other people. Do you mean you need to hear it right before you play it? Or..? Can you please elaborate on this?

What I 'm saying is, if you were playing a tune that I've worked on, I could play it note for note with you, at most any speed that you would play it at, but I could not play it on my own.

[benhall.1]

Actually, I'm not sure if I understand what you are saying when you say that you can't play it unless you are playing with other people. Do you mean you need to hear it right before you play it? Or..? Can you please elaborate on this?

What I 'm saying is, if you were playing a tune that I've worked on, I could play it note for note with you, at most any speed that you would play it at, but I could not play it on my own.

Out of interest, I think that feeling of being able to play it when playing along with others may be illusory. If it's a tune you don't really know, and if it were possible to hear what you were playing, isolated from what anybody else is playing, you would find that maybe you couldn't play it - along with others - as well as you think you can. and maybe, in reality, no better than you could play it on your own.

[Sirchronique]

I can't at all wrap my head around how it would be possible to play something with others, but not on one's own, aside from situations where one forgets a tune, then plays the first few notes, and the whole tune then comes back to them and they remember. Other than that, it just doesn't make any sense how that could be possible.

What I don't understand is- I know there are predictable patterns in many Irish Trad tunes, but how do you know the exact note that comes next? If you only know it when playing others, then how would you be able to play the note at the exact same time as the others without any delay between when you play it?

[benhall.1]

I can't at all wrap my head around how it would be possible to play something with others, but not on one's own, aside from situations where one forgets a tune, then plays the first few notes, and the whole tune then comes back to them and they remember. Other than that, it just doesn't make any sense how that could be possible.

What I don't understand is- I know there are predictable patterns in many Irish Trad tunes, but how do you know the exact note that comes next? If you only know it when playing others, then how would you be able to play the note at the exact same time as the others without any delay between when you play it?

Well, in my reply above, I wasn't intending to dismiss the idea altogether. However, I think the principal factor that applies in these situations is one of confidence. If others are playing, you have more confidence and maybe less inhibitions. Also, if you stumble, you can pick it back up because the tune rolls on.

[dunnp]

If you can't play the tune confidently on your own you don't really "know" the tune. Knowing the tune might be a better goal than playing the tune along with others.

Knowing a tune for me means having it inside and out being able to take it different places confidently. Getting inside the tune. The only way to get there is to put the head down and do the work.

So the tunes you know are different from tunes that you are familiar enough with that if someone else was playing it confidently you could tag along. I'm sure we all have these tunes. Ones you've never sat down and worked on but are vaguely there none the less.

Sounds like you need more of the former and less of the latter.

Maybe keep your listening seperate from practicing for a bit. Don't practice with the cd. Meaning you would have to have listened enough that you could confidently hear the tune in your head without the cd.

Perhaps it's too early to be playing the pipes with others.

Good Luck,
Patrick

[Sirchronique]

I can't at all wrap my head around how it would be possible to play something with others, but not on one's own, aside from situations where one forgets a tune, then plays the first few notes, and the whole tune then comes back to them and they remember. Other than that, it just doesn't make any sense how that could be possible.

What I don't understand is- I know there are predictable patterns in many Irish Trad tunes, but how do you know the exact note that comes next? If you only know it when playing others, then how would you be able to play the note at the exact same time as the others without any delay between when you play it?

Well, in my reply above, I wasn't intending to dismiss the idea altogether. However, I think the principal factor that applies in these situations is one of confidence. If others are playing, you have more confidence and maybe less inhibitions. Also, if you stumble, you can pick it back up because the tune rolls on.

My reply was more based upon his response to my question. Regardless, being able to play it better in such an environment, and being only able to play the tune in such an environment, are two very different things. I was interpreting the response as being indicative of the latter. I'm not necessarily dismissing it, either. I'm just not sure I understand how that works. Maybe a different learning method is in order, if nothing else, in addition to the mentioned method of learning. I imagine it would be difficult to practice and improve one's playing of the tunes very much throughout the day if they couldn't play them alone.

Ah, also, if learning from a CD it might help to listen to the part of the tune, then learn that part, and going back and listening to the part again and again, yet during the times you are figuring it out, to not have the CD running. This way, it isn't being played along with it while it's being learned from the start.

[woodfluter]

I can't at all wrap my head around how it would be possible to play something with others, but not on one's own, aside from situations where one forgets a tune, then plays the first few notes, and the whole tune then comes back to them and they remember. Other than that, it just doesn't make any sense how that could be possible.

I hope this is adding to the clarity rather than muddying the waters, but ...

A fiddle playing friend of mine has often remarked on my ability to follow along with what she or someone else is playing, without looking at the notes or knowing the tune. It sort of freaks her out and she keeps talking about that. She has likened it to the ability of some folks to parrot what someone else is saying at almost the same time, delayed a few milliseconds. We experimented and found I could (sort of, to my surprise) do that too pretty well.

I'd like to point out that it's not a bad thing really, and likely to help in learning tunes if combined with other skills or quirks. But it isn't the same thing *at all* as really knowing a tune or any other piece of music. The latter takes an experienced ear and much work.

FWIW...
- Bill

[highwood]

I can't at all wrap my head around how it would be possible to play something with others, but not on one's own, aside from situations where one forgets a tune, then plays the first few notes, and the whole tune then comes back to them and they remember. Other than that, it just doesn't make any sense how that could be possible.

I hope this is adding to the clarity rather than muddying the waters, but ...

A fiddle playing friend of mine has often remarked on my ability to follow along with what she or someone else is playing, without looking at the notes or knowing the tune. It sort of freaks her out and she keeps talking about that. She has likened it to the ability of some folks to parrot what someone else is saying at almost the same time, delayed a few milliseconds. We experimented and found I could (sort of, to my surprise) do that too pretty well.

I'd like to point out that it's not a bad thing really, and likely to help in learning tunes if combined with other skills or quirks. But it isn't the same thing *at all* as really knowing a tune or any other piece of music. The latter takes an experienced ear and much work.

FWIW...
- Bill

My Solfege teacher called people utilizing that skill in her class (solfege class is sight singing with do, re, mi) "Musical Termites".
It might be a useful skill to get a tune, but ultimately it does not make for a superlative musical performance/experience. One just has to know the tune - there is that other stage though where you know the tune but just can't get it started (either because you don't quite know it yet or it has got lost in the folds of your grey matter and needs a little prompting to unearth), so if some one else starts the tune it comes back to you and you can play it even if they then dropped out.

[Ronnie]

I know what the poster means. I do sometimes play tunes at session that I can't start alone or remember. Got something to do with the brain I guess or the circumsta,ces where you learn.

[Love2whistle]

so it’s hard to anticipate whats coming next, which makes it hard for me to play with others.

Even on tunes I "know" I struggle with the pipes because I'm trying to listen to the others.

I think I understand what you are saying in that you are using the audio cd or others playing as a aid/crutch to help you play along with tunes you are not completely comfortable with. This sounds like how I as a music reader and listener when not completely comfortable with a tune have to refer to certain bars in the notation for reference it only takes a glance and I'm reminded of what note the next phrase/part is to start on.

From my point of view your crutch seems completely natural as is mine but if it's not addressed by concentrating on learning the tunes completely at some point it may become an ever increasing phenomena in that that more tunes you learn a percentage of those will never be completely committed to memory, is this is to be expected when learning so much week after week? or would it need to be addressed by someone who understands how to deal with it. Your instructor may be a good person to talk to.

[popsnorkle]

What I 'm saying is, if you were playing a tune that I've worked on, I could play it note for note with you, at most any speed that you would play it at, but I could not play it on my own.

Can you hum or whistle the tune? If not you don't really know it. If you can you could work on playing it from that knowledge of the tune instead of the CD.

[david_h]

When I am listening to a familiar tune I often anticipate the next phrase that I will hear.
When I am playing a tune on my own I often anticipate the next phrase I will play.
When I am playing a familiar tune with someone else, or a recording, I sometimes anticipate the next phrase I will hear rather than what I have in my head. Playing with better players my rhythm is usually determined by what I am hearing and expecting.

I can't sight read music, but I can quite imagine that some who play with others doing that have a better developed ability to listen to others than to a tune
stored in their head.

So I don't think that it is odd for someone to have developed a reliance on what they are hearing.