Shape of the mouth

[Mikethebook]

I've not seen anything written about using the inner shape and size of the mouth cavity to vary the tone/strength of notes, particularly on low whistles. Does anyone know much about this? I'm also struggling to quieten second octave A and above on my low D and wonder if anyone can advise me how to to shape the mouth internally and also the lips to get the right embouchure for these high notes. Thanks.

[Feadoggie]

I've not seen anything written about using the inner shape and size of the mouth cavity to vary the tone/strength of notes, particularly on low whistles. Does anyone know much about this?

That has been discussed here in the past. It's perhaps not the most common topic so it is surely worth having another chat about it.

There seem to be a few thoughts that I have run into over the years. One is that the human side of things doesn't matter a great deal concerning tone except in the way that the breath is delivered to the windway. And maybe that is the case with some whistle designs - but not all. There is a lot of variation in windway design that may contribute.

So the other side of the coin is the thinking that the mouth acts as either a pressure equalizing chamber or as a resonator. Some players play with tightly pursed lips and a rather closed mouth. Others will play with a more relaxed lip and a large mouth cavity full of air. I am not sure about whether it is resonance but you can observe a tonal difference by using the full large mouth cavity approach. It's not so easy to pick up with a microphone but you can hear the difference when playing either high or low whistles.

And obviously a player can be quite successful and effective using either technique, a mix of both or something in between (which is likely more prevalent I would think).

I tend to play with a more relaxed mouth but it depends on which whistle I'm playing. I don't insert the whistle beak into my mouth. I just rest the tip on the lower lip. I do tend to open the mouth and throat for the airier stuff than I would for the dance tunes.

How do others approach things? And what do you observe?

I'm also struggling to quieten second octave A and above on my low D and wonder if anyone can advise me how to to shape the mouth internally and also the lips to get the right embouchure for these high notes.

That's part of the individual whistle design dictating the shaoe of the mouth to a degree I would think. The first question might be how do you have play to get the A and above to speak cleanly. Do you have to spit or huff at it? Do you have to tongue it? Do you have to cut it hard? Do you have to keep the lower hand fingers down to support the high a, b and c#? Or, does it just take a little more velocity then the high G note? You may need to shape your mouth differently in each case.

The best whistles, just my personal opinion here, would be those that have a smooth and predictable breath curve and don't require an extreme change to play above the high G. But that's an elusive trait especially if you like a honking bell note. So if the whistle voicing is biased well for the bottom notes the highest notes may become a tad more difficult. It's a classic design conundrum. If you bias the voicing to get the smooth top end the lower notes may be weaker. Many of the better whistles compromise a bit between the two.

And all that can dictate how you play and particularly how you shape your mouth. Does that make any sense?

But if the goal is to play up high with the best tone possible no matter what the whistle requires then the only suggestion is lots of practice and patience. That, like everything else, becomes more assured and comfortable the more time we spend playing up there. Sometimes it helps to think less about something and just do it over and over 'til it falls in place. It's time in the saddle, miles on the odometer, hours on the engine I think. If you like the whistle and how it sounds it will come in time. You'll get there.

Feadoggie

[MTGuru]

These might help:

viewtopic.php?p=788155#p788155
viewtopic.php?p=905006#p905006

[MadmanWithaWhistle]

I can second Feadoggie on the "resonance" of the open mouth/throat. For me, a good tone comes from a relaxed body. If I purse my lips I feel like I'm straining too hard for the high notes. By contrast, when I keep the back of my throat very open (think of the feeling when you're yawning) and my jaw slightly dropped, the high notes seem quieter and less harsh. Remember, fretting about the high notes will only make them worse as you tense up!

[ecohawk]

I don't know if this adds any value to this discusion but as an old recorder player this came up a lot. Teachers would tell me ad infinitum to use a full open cheek when playing and to round the mouth cavity as much as possible which would ensure a robust and complete tone. I found it to be hogwash to tell the truth.

What I did and do agree with is that tension in the lips and mouth, just as in the fingers, will often result in distortions and over or under-blowing notes. It is also much harder to control breath on ornamentations like the infamous glottal stop or the more common tongueing if your jaw or mouth is tense. When energy is focused on opening the oral cavity, it tends to relax everything so this might account for some improvement or the perception of same.

I tend, like Feadoggie, to put just the tip of the mouthpiece in my lips, only as far into my mouth as necessary to produce tone. Some whistles because of the shape of the mouthpiece, need to be held differently but I also find that the further the mouthpiece is inserted into your mouth, the wetter it will be and clogging increases exponentially. YMMV.

Interesting question though and the jury is still out.

ecohawk

[Mikethebook]

Thanks guys. Lot's to think about here and experiment with. My placing of the whistle is fine, the very end of the whistle just resting between my lips but in order to play high notes I've been trying to limited the amount of air going into the windway which has resulted in tense pursed lips I guess. As you say I need to relax about it.

Using the shape of the mouth to vary tone does fascinate me. In his slow stuff you can often hear Davy Spillane play a long note but varying the tone throughout it which I guess must be through the use of his mouth - he plays a very easy blowing modified Overton so not much "room" to manoever on each note. And watching him play the opening piece on Riverdance is interesting. The "air" goes right up to third octave E but his mouth always looks relaxed, though I notice it moves a lot as though he's gently chewing on something; is he changing the tone with his mouth here I wonder?

[Feadoggie]

but in order to play high notes I've been trying to limited the amount of air going into the windway which has resulted in tense pursed lips I guess.

Whistles vary by design but it is safe to say that the high notes need velocity to generate them. Limiting the air in the windway is probably not what you need to do to hit them since it will likely limit the air pressure in the windway and therefor the velocity of what comes out of the windway. It's best to just go for it and if the high notes are relatively loud let them be loud.

In his slow stuff you can often hear Davy Spillane play a long note but varying the tone throughout it which I guess must be through the use of his mouth - he plays a very easy blowing modified Overton so not much "room" to manoever on each note.

It's probably a matter of some opposing philosophies but I find free blowing designs to generally have a wider dynamic range than on designs with the more constrained windways. That can come with at least two downsides, depending on how you look at things. One is that the tuning can have a wider pitch variation depending on how the player blows. The other is that the overall air requirements are comparatively greater. But the player is in total control of all of that and is not limited by the whistle's design. Some like that , others not as much.

And watching him play the opening piece on Riverdance is interesting. The "air" goes right up to third octave E but his mouth always looks relaxed, though I notice it moves a lot as though he's gently chewing on something; is he changing the tone with his mouth here I wonder?

Mike, do you have a link to a particular video of that? I'd like to take a look at what is going on there.

Feadoggie



Feadoggie

[Mikethebook]

Apologies, my memory was wrong. It was on a later piece in Riverdance that Davy's mouth movements interested me. You can check it out at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QL2r6yG3XM for about 10 seconds from about 19 seconds in . . . though the clear closeups of his fingers I find interesting too.

It's probably a matter of some opposing philosophies but I find free blowing designs to generally have a wider dynamic range than on designs with the more constrained windways.

This is I find confusing. I thought that harder blowers had the advantage of a wider dynamic range and that free blowers were more attractive to beginners despite the greater air requirements because it is easier to hit the note spot on.

[Feadoggie]

Thanks for the link. I do see what you are referring to. I'm not entirely sure about what he is doing but I could interpret it as you have easily enough.

This is I find confusing. I thought that harder blowers had the advantage of a wider dynamic range and that free blowers were more attractive to beginners despite the greater air requirements because it is easier to hit the note spot on.

That's kind of why I said it was a matter of opposing philosophies. Both designs work nicely when done well. So there isn't a right or wrong side to these philosophies. It probably is true that harder blowers have a narrower pitch variance within their dynamic range. But if a whistle with a free blowing windway is made well (and that's a loaded statement!) with an easy speaking and efficient noise maker it should not end up particularly pitchy.

While we would like to speak in generalities it is not always easy or entirely factual to do so. So much of the final outcome depends on the many design decisions and the skill of an individual whistle maker.

As for the whistle preferences of beginners, I think they universally prefer whistles that play themselves, so to speak. I've chatted with a lot of beginners. And sometimes they offer great insights albeit from a wonderfully naive framework - which is nice. Many beginners do seem to want an easy blower meaning one that neither uses a lot of air or much breath pressure. Of course there are those that have previously played instruments like sax, bagpipes or oboe which want something altogether different.

Feadoggie

[ecohawk]

If I can add another two cents to the hard vs easy blower issue regarding dynamic range (I love that term) it would be that I've experienced what Feadoggie describes. In the beginning I wanted whistles that tended to have very little breath resistance and a very narrow ranged between flat and sharp for each note, but with a clear octave break. For me, at that skill level, it made me sound much better and gave me the confidence to learn and move forward. So it was my limitations in finger placement and breath control that was holding me back. Since I'm an old buy with ADD (diagnosed ), I have little patience for failure.

At one point, after a year of playing an hour or more every day, I noted that I couldn't produce some of the tonal variations that I observed among some of the pros and began to realize that much of the cause was the instruments limitation, not mine. Obviously I'm still not as good as they are anyway, but I do dream! As I spent a lot of time searching C&F, and PM'ing (is that a word?) members who graciously offered their support and advice, I began to search for different instruments that offered me the flexibility I seemed to need. My first inclination was to choose harder blowing instruments in the mistaken belief that this was the only solution. I quickly discovered that was not entirely true.

I found that many freer-blowing (Copeland, Burke, Reviol, Lambe, Schultz, Gen etc.) and more breath resistant (Goldie, Busman, Harper, Impempe, Parks, etc.) instruments (but not all!) offered some level of dynamic range and responsiveness but the approach required to achieve this was different between them. So I've come to believe, as Feadoggie stated, that when an instrument is designed to be responsive and dynamic it will absolutely require more advanced breath control to achieve, but a player may approach this in different ways. Modifying the shape of the oral cavity could be one way, I'd use my diaphragm (careful) to achieve the same outcome.

This is not a function of cost as much as design and production. There is a great deal of difference in cost between the instruments I've named above and these are by no means intended to be an endorsement or a complete list of the better made whistles around. This is simply a function of the maker being good at what they do and targeting an audience appropriately.

Hence WHOAD if you're not careful or willing to do your homework.

Ok, this was more like twenty-five cents.

ecohawk

[hans]

I don't know if this adds any value to this discussion but as an old recorder player this came up a lot. Teachers would tell me ad infinitum to use a full open cheek when playing and to round the mouth cavity as much as possible which would ensure a robust and complete tone. I found it to be hogwash to tell the truth.

I am not sure what you (your teachers) mean. I imagine a full cheek is a cheek filled with air, which makes the mouth into a kind of bag with additional pressure arising from the full cheeks. That does not work well for me. I keep the cheeks relaxed, and the lips relaxed. And how do you round the mouth cavity? Do you pull the chin down? I don't. I do keep the tongue low, so there is a nice cavity between tongue and the roof of the mouth. Apart from when the tip of the tongue flicks up to touch the roof behind the top front teeth, to cut the air stream. I notice that as soon as I tighten the cheeks and lips the pitch goes up a little due to increased wind speed. I think it comes from that little extra push of air arising when the cheeks tighten and making the mouth cavity smaller. So that can be used for fine modulation and subtle tone change. I think I basically agree with ecohawks assessment.

In his slow stuff you can often hear Davy Spillane play a long note but varying the tone throughout it which I guess must be through the use of his mouth - he plays a very easy blowing modified Overton so not much "room" to manoever on each note.

It's probably a matter of some opposing philosophies but I find free blowing designs to generally have a wider dynamic range than on designs with the more constrained windways. That can come with at least two downsides, depending on how you look at things. One is that the tuning can have a wider pitch variation depending on how the player blows. The other is that the overall air requirements are comparatively greater. But the player is in total control of all of that and is not limited by the whistle's design. Some like that , others not as much.

I mostly agree with this description, but not that it is a matter of opposing philosophies, just entrenched opinions . I do not see that whistles with more flow resistance ("harder blowers") have as high dynamic possibilities on single notes as those with less flow resistance ("easy blowers"). But why should the overall air requirements be comparatively greater for an "easy blower"? If you blow more softly, for less volume, you use less air. If you blow more strongly, for loudest volume, you use more air. With a harder blower you just don't have that much choice.

As for the whistle preferences of beginners, I think they universally prefer whistles that play themselves, so to speak. I've chatted with a lot of beginners. And sometimes they offer great insights albeit from a wonderfully naive framework - which is nice. Many beginners do seem to want an easy blower meaning one that neither uses a lot of air or much breath pressure.

Yes, and there is no contradiction. A free blower can provide both. Unless you want some power as well, then you need more breath.

PS: I prefer the term "free blower" over "easy blower". It is not necessarily easy to play a free blowing whistle, as it may require more air flow control. OTOH it may be easier to play a "hard blower" !

[Mikethebook]

Thanks for all the thoughts! Much to ponder on. I have a long way to go, I realise, in cultivating good breath support and habits . . . . and also larger lungs now that I'm veering more towards slow airs on my Goldie Low D (soft blower)!!! I'm not sure I'm fully supporting my breath with the diaphragm yet though I'm working on breathing in that way. It's slightly off the subject I know but I'm curious about how you guys breath in while playing. One exercise for breathing I came across involved lying down and slowly breathing in using the diaphragm until the stomach was full raised THEN continuing to breath in by expanding the rib cage, the stomach drawing back in again. My question is this. When playing low whistle do you use the second stage of this exercise at all or only the first part?

To get back on track, I realise, I think, that I tense my lips and mouth more when I approach second octave A & B especially when I'm trying to cut or roll on the B. I seems strange to try and relax into those notes.

[ecohawk]

Mike this touches on a lot of sensitive and opinionated areas but I can tell you how I approach breath control.

First some background; I have been a lifelong (44 of my 60 years) yoga practitioner. Therefore breathing deeply into and out of my diaphragm comes naturally to me as do glottal stops. Neither of these practices are natural to most and are not particularly easy to just pick up. I'm not even saying it's the best way to go about this. Most musicians I know who play wind instruments do not use diaphragmatic breathing, nor glottal stops, to control breath pressure and articulation and I don't completely understand how they otherwise accomplish this aspect of wind instrument playing. They seem to use tonguing quite a lot more than I. (possible can of worms alert) I'm sure someone will come along to explain their method since it's likely to be more common than mine.

BTW I've tried using circular breathing (I play a mean didgeridoo too) and it's marginally useful l for whistle but not better for me as it seems less precise. YMMV.

From what you describe, you are putting way too much effort into thinking about breathing. That alone will cause tremendous tension which will show up in your playing. I know many really excellent players who seem to have more or less lung capacity than I and they simply breathe in different places and at different intervals than I.

One exercise I find useful, particularly when getting used to a new whistle, is something else I learned while playing recorder. Play octaves, including as many chromatic notes as possible (Cnat, Fnat or the equivalent) using only your breath, without tonguing or any other attempt to start and end notes. Just breathe into your whistle and use your fingers to march up and down the scale, holding each note for two or three beats while using only gradual breath pressure to bring the note up to pitch or to change/maintain the correct octave. Using this approach, you will tend to get a really solid idea of how much breath pressure is needed to solidly achieve each note and octave break. It doesn't take more than a few repetitions of this to see how sensitive your instrument is. It is my experience that this also develops a genuine familiarity with the instrument and relieves the insecurity - hence the tendency to tense up on the higher notes. This is also my only warm-up exercise for whistle playing or practicing.

I believe that most players, particularly when playing low or unfamiliar whistles, misinterpret and over-blow the higher ranges. And as offered in previous messages, the more dynamic range a whistle offers for each note, the more precise one must be to sense this. That's why IMHO, whistles that seem to hit notes more precisely regardless of experience, will at some point begin to grow tedious as your experience grows. They simply won't allow you to experiment with, or enjoy, this level of precision.

I certainly can prattle on sometimes. Sorry about that.

ecohawk

[Mikethebook]

Thanks. Some good thoughts there. I will definitely try to just get on with playing and relax about the breathing more. And I'll try the chromatic scale and see how I get on with that.

[Daniel_Bingamon]

Native Flutes have a section called the Slow Air Chamber which supposed to suppress Air Noise by lowering the velocity of the air, straightening it out before it ramps up to high velocity in the duct.

Mouth chambers of-course vary in size so I would suspect that the external chamber simply standardizes the supply chamber to the instrument.