History of Uilleann pipes in England

buskerSean · Post by **buskerSean** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 2:30 pm

On the London Uilleann Pipes Club website it says that Uilleann pipes are Native to both Ireland England, but they died out in England. This is not a claim I have seen elsewhere, I thought they were an exclusively Irish in origin.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 4:24 pm

The earliest tutor is out of London for the pastoral pipes. Pastoral pipes were made in Scotland as well in the 18th century. It is usually considered that the Irish developed the chanter with the foot-joint removed, as the leading tone was not needed, and added to the number of regulators. Someone else should correct me as needed. I was discussing this with a couple of young fellas from Donegal in a pub here, while sitting with Paddy Keenan, between sets. One guy got irate at the notion that the English had anything to do with the pipes, so he blurted out,"sure, the English invented the toilet seat too, but it took an Irishman to put the hole in it".

Ted

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 4:39 pm

Ted wrote:One guy got irate at the notion that the English had anything to do with the pipes, so he blurted out,"sure, the English invented the toilet seat too, but it took an Irishman to put the hole in it".

Hilarious! (no offense please, Englishmen)

An Englishman trying out his new Irish toilet seat.

(sorry AlanB!)

Thomas-Hastay · Post by **Thomas-Hastay** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 4:56 pm

Hi folks

There is a wonderful book on the history of the bagpipe titled "The Story of Music,Bagpipes" by M Gratton Flood.

It has a huge amount of detailed info on all the pipes,makers and players in history. I suggest you check this old gem out from the library! If you can't find it, I would be glad to quote some from my cherished copy.

The "pipes" originated in ancient Sumaria around 3,000BCE and the Romans(English)had thier version too.

There is also a legend of Norse raiders, on an ancient tablet of about 250BCE, that carried off an Egyptian princess named "Scota" and brought her to Pictland. It is believed that she brought the pipes with her.( In every legend there is a seed of truth.)

kevin m. · Post by **kevin m.** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 5:16 pm

No offence Ted,we English are known for our toilet humour. I used to drink 'Toilet duck' - It drove me clean round the bend!

That picture shows what we inthe North east of England refer to as a 'Netty',which in the old days wouldn't be complete without squares of newspaper hanging from a nail (no,they weren't put there to read!)

sammyd · Post by **sammyd** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 7:59 pm

Some people even say that the GHB was originally an Irish bagpipe. But had 1 tenor drone instead of 2.
Here is a reference.
http://www.doyle.com.au/great_irish_warpipe.htm

Samuel

jqpublick · Post by **jqpublick** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 8:13 pm

Hey all:

My understanding is that the bagpipe was first noted archaeologically in Africa, (although Thomas has noted Sumeria and 3000 B.C.) and that the Roman Empire had spent some quality time there checking out the local scene, the wimmin and the drinking. And, of course, laying waste to as much land and cultures as they could.

It has been suggested (and I just know I'm gonna start a fight here) that the Irish, although never conquered by the Romans, did join their legions and went to Africa, heard the music, liked it and brought back the pipes, as well as much of the fundaments of the musical structure. They stopped off in the middle east, drank and smoked and listened and brought back the rhythms from there.

So, the pipes as a musical instrument came from Africa, as well as some of the musical structure, but the pulse, the beat, rhythm, or whatever you want to call it, came mostly from the middle east.

One of my aims musically is to meld these things together, not unlike some of the other fusion bands out there. Somewhat heretical on a forum dedicated to the 'pure drop', I know, but music is what it is, a moving and dynamic reflection of the life around us.

If I could whip out all the stuff I've read and point meaningfully to what other people have written on these subjects, I would, but I haven't worked on a scholastic paper in ten years so my memory for old references is a bit rusty.

I hope I don't offend anyone by saying any of this, I love Irish music as it is and always have, I just like the idea of blending it with other, equally ancient musics.

Mark

tok · Post by **tok** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 8:25 pm

the bathroom seems like the perfect place to debate the origin of the pipes . In such a place , it cant go on for long . I hope . Unless your stuck .lol

anima · Post by **anima** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 8:34 pm

<<music is what it is, a moving and dynamic reflection of the life around us.>>

I like that, great quote.

Jeff

Antaine · Post by **Antaine** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 8:41 pm

well, it's been argued that the Celts as a whole may have originated in the north middle east. i would think it would be rather unlikely that a snippet of culture brought back from foreign lands by mercenaries would amount to anything more than a novelty for about 10 years. I find it far more likely that trade and whatnot from the nearby, wealthy, prosperous Roman Empire might have imported the bagpipes - which seems far more likely than the whole mercenary idea. IMHO

Uilliam · Post by **Uilliam** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 12:04 am

The London Pipers Club says.....I wouldnna take what they say as Gospel . Ron (the secretary) will tell you that they have borrowed most of their stuff for the website from others.
London has been full of Irish since London began and for that matter Britain as a whole has had a millenia of intercourse with us some good a lot plain bad.
So the Union Pipes with one regulator being noted about 1740 remain uniquely Irish..
The English have a very irritating habit of claiming everything for themselves when its good and knocking it when its not aka Irish Gold medallists from the Republic are oft quoted as being British in the press when they are nothing of the sort.The GHB is not uniquely Scottish and of course the Irish had them.The early Scottish Bagpipe had two drones only too so nothing new there!
Erin go Bragh
Liam

AlanB · Post by **AlanB** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 9:08 am

Lorenzo,

Absolutely no offence taken, I'm Cornish, so! (Yes, we're the one's who design bagpipes from rude carvings on church benches).

I don't think there's enough historical proof to say where the pipes originated, but, as historians continually guess and re-guess about events gone afore, anything is possible, though this is a bit like arguing darwinism with creationists.

I once heard that the UPs were initially a Scots invention..........

Perhaps god put them here to test our faith??

Alan

john · Post by **john** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:54 am

finbar furey says that the Irish invented bagpipes, keeping the uilleann pipes for themselves & giving the highland pipes to the Scottish as a joke

Post by **Nanohedron** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 12:09 pm

Although bagpipes in many guises are found throughout the reaches of what was once the Roman Empire (Tunisia as well!), I came across a very intriguing bit of info: there is an ethnic group in northern Turkey that are very fond of their particular bagpipe, and are noted by other groups for the distinction of having the retroflexive "R" in their speech. This is also found in Irish Gaelic (Scots, too? Don't know). I don't remember the name of this people, but it set me to wondering if they could be remnants of the Galatians (a Celtic people) that settled in Turkey.

Best,
N

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 2:01 pm

Re origin of pipes, there's an article I read in the National Geographic, Oct., 1953, about the healthy Hunzas, an isolated tribe living in the Himalayas, where the mountains reach eastward to Tibet and stretch west to Afghnistan. When the article was written, Pakistan controlled the Hunza's foreign relations, defense, and communications, although Hunza controlled it's own internal affairs.

The author relates many interesting facts about the Hunzas, and was one of the first western journalists to visit the tribe and document many of the rumors, like their health, diet, and life style. The following is but one paragraph from the article, page 517, and describes their interesting music and instruments.

"The next day was devoted to dancing. In the morning old men performed cerimonial figures, tripping lightly to the tune of pipe and drum. One red bearded gentleman, who told us he was 98, did a number which resembled a sailor's hornpipe."

These traditions had been uninterrupted for centuries. Kind of a strange thought that Pakistani pipes may have been played before the Scottish or Irish got ahold of them....conjecture of course.