OT: Support our troops....

[Turner]

What Sir Winston Churchill might have had to say about the War in Iraq

Do you belive that your work has influenced Pres Bush?

History will be kind to me for I intend to write it.
Sir Winston Churchill

Is Iraq really a threat?

There are a terrible lot of lies going around the world, and the worst of it is half of them are true.
Sir Winston Churchill

If so have we made the right decision taking action against Iraq, Winnie says:

One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half.
Sir Winston Churchill

However

Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth and easy, or that anyone who embarks on the strange voyage can measure the tides and hurricanes he will encounter. The statesman who yields to war fever must realize that once the signal is given, he is no longer the master of policy but the slave of unforeseeable and uncontrollable events.
Sir Winston Churchill

And what about post War Iraq Sir Churchill:

Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
Sir Winston Churchill, Hansard, November 11, 1947

Anything else to add about the war Winston

One day President Roosevelt told me that he was asking publicly for suggestions about what the war should be called. I said at once 'The Unnecessary War'.
Sir Winston Churchill, Second World War (1948)

Maybe a message to the defenders Sir Winston:

Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.
Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School

Will this war make the world a safer place Sir Churchill?

Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
Sir Winston Churchill, Speech in November 1942

Any hints or tips for Pres Bush?

It is a good thing for an uneducated man to read books of quotations.
Sir Winston Churchill, My Early Life, 1930


A word about this Subject on the chiff and fipple board Winston

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
Sir Winston Churchill

[AaronMalcomb]

Now that it's come to France/US bashing I'll have to key in again. The comment about anti-French sentiments in the US being similar to ant-Semitic sentiments in Nazi Germany is maybe a little too strong of a comparison but the core idea isn't far from the mark. Statesman like John McCain, pundits like Rush Limbaugh, and comedians like Jay Leno all contribute to all present ridiculous caricatures of the French. Growing up in the US most of us are presented with these caricatures to the point where most of us don't really know what a French person is really like. When somebody takes a crack at the French on tv or radio all we really have to draw from is Pepe LePew and the like. Though it's not a propaganda of hate, it is a propaganda of ridicule and mistrust.

I've lived in France. I lived with a very average French family. My host father was a mechanic, his wife a hospital secretary. His father was a fireman, and so and so forth. Not fallen aristocracy or BCBG bourgeoisies but very normal. The kind of family the average American can connect with (my father's a farmer, my mother's a hospital secretary). I found these people completely un-snobbish, un-cowardly, un-assuming, pretty much un-anything Americans are bombarded with about the French. I lived there right after Chirac took power and it was not a smooth transition from Mitterand. There were constant demonstrations and strikes. Chirac was only re-elected because he was the lesser of evils (kind of sounds like the last few American elections).

I still correspond with the friends I made there. They keep assuring me that the French don't hate Americans; they hate the Bush administration, they hate American multi-national big business, they hate Americna commercialism.

Now counter to all of this, the French are exposed to caricatures of Americans too. Caricatures that show Americans as bunch of take charge cowboys that shoot first and ask questions later.

So really people, let's drop the name calling. The French don't have cooties and the Americans aren't after your lunch money (well not all of us, I think some of us are).

Peace to all,
Aaron

[Roger O'Keeffe]

That's presumably the same Winston Churchill as the one who couldn't understand why people were so squeamish about using poison gas against rebellious tribesmen in Mesopotamia/Iraq?

[DCrom]

So really people, let's drop the name calling. The French don't have cooties and the Americans aren't after your lunch money (well not all of us, I think some of us are).

Peace to all,
Aaron

Hear, Hear!

Though we might be after their LUNCH - stereotype or no, some of the best lunches I've had were in France.

Yes, there are a lot of "French jokes" going around right now. And a lot of us (including at least some of those who hoped to avoid a war) saw the French government's tactics in the UN as unhelpful grandstanding. But quite honestly, I've seen as much, if not more, venom in jokes about members of rival political parties during any closely-contested election. And I suspect a great deal of the American rancor is due not to the basic disagreement but rather Chirac's self-righteous posturing.

But annoyance with a particular stance doesn't mean hatred - just basic (political, philisophical, ethical, aesthetic - take your pick) disagreement on an important point.

Or to put it another way: my wife and I have similarly-strong differences of opinion every few weeks. But despite them, we've been happily married for 21 years so far; sometimes you just have to negotiate a compromise you can both live with or just agree to disagree.

[Roger O'Keeffe]

Well put, Aaron, thank heaven there are still people like you around.

There's a very perceptive explanation <a href=http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Co ... ml>here</a> by a British journalist who lives in the US explaining
why the cheese-eaters are being demonised in abusive, racist terms in the US, while the sausage-and-sauerkraut-eating temporary allies of the axis of evil are now being let off scot-free.

One of the positive developments, which I'm sure Claudine will welcome, is that the red-blooded, testerone-driven freedom-lovers will have to think up a new word for lingerie, so they will no longer have to pronounce it as if it were spelt langeraie.

Another subject of a positive development is Donald Rumsfeld (yeah, the Gröfaz who almost had a very distinguished military career during the many years of the Vietnam war when he was of military age, but unfortunately he "had other priorities" at the time). He evidently fell off his horse on the road to Damascus, because, hallelujah, he's just discovered international law now that he realises US personnel can benefit from it. Read about it <a href=http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Co ... ml>here</a>. What a pity Guantanamo is in the twilight zone.

[AaronMalcomb]

Well put, Aaron, thank heaven there are still people like you around.

I'm hoping that's a positive remark

But I think the main thing is when you listen, watch, or read anything in the media, do so carefully and aggressively. Most media (even in the free USA) is biased. Look at both sides of the story even if one side might seem terribly counter to your own beliefs and values. We all know we should do this and I'm not suggesting any of us don't. I'm just leaving a reminder.

Cheers,
Aaron

[Celtoid]

Well...I went down to vote in our village local election a short time ago and the woman taking my name wanted me to spell it for her and then one asked me if my name wasn't spelled wrong because it was a "girl's name", and then another woman said to the first one, "I think its French" with an unkind sneer. My ancestors were on this continent before the Mayflower. My name is Jean-Michel Simoneau due to parents with an artistic naming technique (I was born in Utah...go figure, and my brothers are Bob and Dave...jeeesh), but it has been a real burden lately. Any other "frogs" out there have any incidents?

[Nanohedron]

Ah, obscurantism. Beats an education any day if you need the certainty of snap judgments to anchor yourself in the rough seas of reality, eh? Celtoid, hang in there.

[Bloomfield]

Well...I went down to vote in our village local election a short time ago and the woman taking my name wanted me to spell it for her and then one asked me if my name wasn't spelled wrong because it was a "girl's name", and then another woman said to the first one, "I think its French" with an unkind sneer. My ancestors were on this continent before the Mayflower. My name is Jean-Michel Simoneau due to parents with an artistic naming technique (I was born in Utah...go figure, and my brothers are Bob and Dave...jeeesh), but it has been a real burden lately. Any other "frogs" out there have any incidents?

I think you should change your first name to "Freedom".

[elendil]

Turner: loved the great Winnie quotes!

Jens: I sent you a PM on the "stot" deal, since it was way OT. Y'know, I can buy into a fair amount of what you say, except that I think you're systematizing way too much. Here's what I mean. I think you impute far more rationality and planning to US foreign policy than is, in fact, warranted. The US is far too disorganized for that, which is one of our weaknesses and should be a source of reassurance to the rest of the world. We will never be lead around by any one faction: not neo-cons, not the loony left, not nobody. Now, if you think our blundering around the global landscape can do real harm, of course you're right, but I don't think it's as conscious as you do. That said, I can understand why those who didn't grow up here would harbor doubts. I happen to believe that Bush does sincerely believe that Iraq poses a threat to the US through terrorist networks (you, obviously, disagree). We can all debate that, but to do so we'll have to descend into a factual morass--one which few of us are able to navigate because we lack inside information. As for the talk about "freedom" and all, I tend to view that as the obligatory ritual denunciations, just a way of saying that right is on our side. If you truly believe that Iraq is a nexus for terrorists, well, of course that's true--right? If the Iraqis decide to adopt a more humane form of societal organization, well and good, but the bottom line is eliminating a threat to the US.

But the other part of what I see as "over systematization" is related in a way to Stoner's point. You seem to want to set up a system of abstract rules and laws to govern human conduct. I would maintain that reality is far too varied and surprising for human ingenuity to manage in that manner. That's why, while I certainly sympathize with Stoner's distinction re genocide-compassion-other motives, in the end I think it wiser not to box oneself into a corner with hard and fast rules for every circumstance. I think it's better to have general rules ("Thou shalt not kill") and then work out the particular cases one at a time ("What does 'kill' mean?")--always with reference to historical precedence. I realize, too, that the way people use "genocide" these days it seems to cover everything, but in my opinion that type of overuse of loaded words leads to disrespect for law--makes it seem to much like trickery ("what does 'is' mean?"). Better to have public debate on good and evil (as in Aeschylus' tragedies), starting more or less from scratch, or at least from first principles.

I see this tendency to try to fit a resistive reality into over-neat categories as a fundamental human tendency. Human nature requires categorization to deal with reality, but I think we have to be constantly on guard against trying to fit square pegs into round holes (or is it the other way round?).

Hey Celtoid, I don't see what the problem is. Why not just call yourself John Michael? Or maybe Moon Unit--nope, that's a girl's name too. (Hmmm. This anonymous posting does bring out the tease in me. It's a good thing I have such a great sense of humor!)

[spittin_in_the_wind]

There was a whacky neighbor of my mom's who came by in a mink coat and carrying a flashlight one night while I was cleaning out the house after Mom moved out, wanting to dig through the trash pile outside. She wanted to give me her name for some reason, and said "It's Lee, spelled 'Le' --it's French" It was all I could do to contain myself not to tell her it means "the"..... my husband was about to bust a gut!

Robin

[jim_mc]

I think there are several reasons why the French are taking the brunt of the abuse right now, but the primary one is that many Americans think they should support us no matter what we do because "They'd all be speaking German now if it wasn't for us."

There's also the French love of their own language and culture, which makes many Americans distrustful of them.

The Germans were our enemy in the two biggest wars of the last century, so we don't count on them for much. Plus it takes a lot bigger committment to drive your BMW into the river than to dump a bottle of wine!

I think it's very discouraging to hear so many of my fellow Americans denigrating those who disagree with the Bush decision. I remain respectful of the French people and culture and grateful for their role in obtaining liberty for America.

By the way, I overheard a couple of yahoos in a local diner discussing the French and one of them actually made the "they'd be speaking German if it wasn't for us" comment. I was walking past them right at that moment and I said, "Yes, but you'd be speaking English right now if it wasn't for the French." :roll:

[Zubivka]

Thanks Roger for this quite interesting, and pure realpolitik, column about why there's French-bashing, and no German bashing.

I guess it would take another article to explain to some Americans why French and German have proven so united on a difficult issue. But we'd have to start from the Adenauer/De Gaulle first agreements, the core of EEC.

It would also take a lot to explain why Claudine seems to resent this French bashing may be more than I do, while she's not French but a native Luxemburg citizen, with German her native language. This may relate to the Europe construction too.

Roger, you're unfair to Guantanamo. You do know that American as well as International laws do not apply to the prison inside this base. It was built by Halliburton Corp. Think of it as private property, is all :roll:

[Roger O'Keeffe]

Nice one, Jim. No doubt that furrowed the Cro-Magnon brows.

Zoob, I'm currently reading "La Guerre des Bush" by Eric Laurent. In a response to market forces which would no doubt be applauded outre-Atlantique, it's grossly overpriced, but I would recommend it highly to anyone who reads French. It's about the relationship between business and politics in the nebula which at present is centred around Bush. Makes you wonder: Americans seem to regard a hatred of socialism as a core American value, because they believe that government should not own business. But they don't seem to have a problem with business owning government. Strange.

[Zubivka]

Well...I went down to vote in our village local election a short time ago and the woman taking my name wanted me to spell it for her and then one asked me if my name wasn't spelled wrong because it was a "girl's name", and then another woman said to the first one, "I think its French" with an unkind sneer. My ancestors were on this continent before the Mayflower. My name is Jean-Michel Simoneau due to parents with an artistic naming technique (I was born in Utah...go figure, and my brothers are Bob and Dave...jeeesh), but it has been a real burden lately. Any other "frogs" out there have any incidents?

Try John Simon. Jews in 1940's Europe changed their names to gentile-sounding, the easiest for you would be to go reverse... Now only the most cautious took care of this before the real crackdown started.
So just cross your fingers for this war to be as short and glorious as promised at earlier stages.

Finally, you know Indians were there before the Mayflower, too. Didn't help them much in the argument. To claim before-Mayflower origins you'd need to be WASP, which disqualifies French early settler.

Now think yourself lucky not being an American born Haitian.

Just imagine: Black African Roman-catholic French, aka "BARF", that's the real bummer...