MK tuning issue?

[Blower]

I've just taken delivery of the wonderful MK Pro lowD. Tuning is spot on all the way to upper register B then it goes haywire. The B is very loud but the C and C# relatively muffled and noticeably out of tune, D louder but still out of tune. I'm not quite sure what you guys mean when you refer to "cents" out but these notes are between 2% and 3% out whereas all the other notes are within 0.4% out which sound fine or can be controlled with air pressure. (For example C# which should be 1108.7 is actually 1139). I'm using the fingering I use for all my other whistles C = OXXXXO, C# = OXXXOO, D = 0XXXXX.
Am I being somewhat picky or is that normal on those upper register notes?

[MTGuru]

(For example C# which should be 1108.7 is actually 1139). I'm using the fingering I use for all my other whistles ... C# = OXXXOO

Oops. Not sure where you learned that fingering, but the standard high C# fingering is all open oooooo. Which is probably what Misha intended. Your odd fingering will be sharp on most whistles*. Best to unlearn it now.

* Yes, the delta between 1108.7 and 1139 is 47 cents, approximately a quarter tone.

C = OXXXXO ... D = 0XXXXX

Those note fingerings are highly variable from whistle to whistle, and you have to experiment and adapt to find the right ones for yours. For example, both C = oxxxox (or half-holed) and D = oxxooo are common.

[Tunborough]

Interesting. On the whistle I have in front of me, OXXXXO gives a better high C-nat than anything except half-holing. I know it wasn't designed that way, because I designed it. Tends to be sharp, but then, so does the high D.

Thanks.

[Blower]

Thanks MT. I think I must have learnt that C# fingering from the whistle I play most (Dixon alloy alto D) which sounds best with that fingering and so tend to use it for other whistles as well. Perhaps I don't use top C# enough on other whistles to have noticed it. It's certainly wrong on the MK though so I'll use the standard fingering for that. Ooops indeed! I'll fiddle about with the C and D fingerings.

Please excuse my ignorance on the technical issues but why is the delta between 1108.7 and 1139 47 cents? As I said in the OP I wasn't quite sure what was meant by cents.

[MTGuru]

Please excuse my ignorance on the technical issues but why is the delta between 1108.7 and 1139 47 cents? As I said in the OP I wasn't quite sure what was meant by cents.

No need to apologize for a good question.

Here's the wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cent_(music)

In a nutshell ... If you divide each semitone (half step) of the equal tempered chromatic scale into 100 equal parts, those are cents. So 100 cents = 1 semitone, 50 cents = 1/2 semitone (i.e. quarter tone), etc.

Mathematically, cents are logarithmic. The octave is a multiplicative frequency ratio of 2:1, so an ET semitone is the 12th root of that, or 2^(1/12) = 1.059. A cent is 1/100 of that, or the 1200th root of 2, 2^(1/1200) = 1.00058.

That's a very small ratio. But the advantage is that cents are perceived as linear. So for example, you hear 50 cents as being halfway to the next note, 25 cents as one quarter of the way, etc. And because cents are independent of frequency, it's a much more intuitive measure than frequency percentage, which varies depending on the actual frequency involved.

Electronic tuners typically display cents, and you can develop the ability to estimate pitch differences in cents by ear. In the case of whistles, 5-10 cents is a typical threshold for hearing pitch differences, depending on the context (unison tuning, scale or interval intonation, etc.).

The math for calculating a frequency difference in cents is straightforward. But even easier is this handy online page with calculators for the common conversions:

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-centsratio.htm

In this case, go down to the second calculator (Cent value-determination of an interval), plug in your frequencies, and get the resulting delta in cents.

[stanton135]

I just tried some of these suggested fingerings and a couple of my own on my MK low D. Note that I didn't check them against a tuner, but by ear against reference notes.

Third octave D on my MK definitely needs OXX OOO. OXX XXX is very sharp.

For high C#, I found that OOO OOO gives a note that is just slightly flat. Not flat enough to be noticed if played quickly, I think. I found that OOO OOX and OOO XXX both sharpen it slightly.

For high C natural, I found that OXX XXO gives a note that is noticeably too sharp. I tried the suggested OXX XOX, and found that it gave a note that was quite close in pitch, but of unstable tone. I had to be very careful with it--if I blew just slightly too hard the note changed to a sharp high D. Other options are OXO XXX and OXO XXO. OXO XXX is just a tad flat, and OXO XXO is just a tad sharp.

The fingering that I personally have settled on for high C on my MK is OXO XX/. Yes, it's a cross-fingering with a half-hole in it. So why not just half hole it as /OO OOO? Sometimes I do. The advantage of OXO XX/, for me, is that the amount of aperture on B3 is not nearly as critical to intonation as it is for T1 on /OO OOO. With /OO OOO, the note can go sharp or flat by up to 100 cents (a semitone!) if you're not exact with your half-holing technique. With OXO XX/, the note can only go sharp or flat by about 10 cents with imprecise finger placement.

...I just reread my post before clicking "submit", and was reminded of my coworkers making fun of me for being OCD earlier today. Oh well.

[Blower]

Thanks all. I'm pleased it's me not the whistle. I'm also glad I enquired here first and didn't go to Misha. I'd have felt a right plonker then!

[Sirchronique]

Edit, I'm going to condense this to save you guys a couple pages of reading, and just say this:

I suggested 0XX XX/ .

I tested both my way and Stantons way, and both seem to work depending how you blow that note, and how much of the hole you cover.

Covering about exactly half the hole, with both ways, I found my way needed to be blown harder, to not be flat, and stantons way had to be blown softer, or have more of the last hole covered, in order to not be sharp.

I would say choose the way that suits your playing. I did find stantons way works much better on higher whistles, than mine, which I just realised from using a tuner- is flat. However, I'm torn about which to use on the MK. I think

[pancelticpiper]

I would guess that MKs were not originally designed with high C, C#, and D in mind.

The highest note usually found in traditional Irish music is B, one reason probably being that that's the highest note possible on a fiddle without shifting from 1st position, and Irish fiddlers traditionally don't shift.

Likewise B is the highest note possible on an keyless uilleann chanter... well there's a screaming high D that's possible but not of much musical use. Few people alive could claim better chanter technique than Paddy Moloney in his prime, but I've noticed on old Chieftans recordings his avoiding high D when the rest of the band was playing it.

On Irish flute it's rare too, though there's one cut of Matt Molloy going up to a single fleeting high D in one of his variations.

Off the top of my head there are very few traditional Irish tunes I can think of that go beyond B, one being a C in Trim the Velvet, another being a C in the version of Mug of Brown Ale that I play (but not in the session version). There's also one or two Paddy Carty tunes where he plays a triplet that appears to go C# B A or maybe it's C B A (he was using a mechanised flute).

Bottom line, I don't think it's realistic to expect an instrument designed for a certain genre to perform things outwith that genre. Boehm flutes are designed to play well in the 3rd register; why not use one of those if you're playing music that has a range larger than is normal in traditional Irish music?

Breandan Breathnach, in Folk Music and Dances of Ireland, says "The vast majority of airs have a range varying between 9 and 11 notes. Scarcely any exceed a range of 13 notes..."

Tomas O Canainn, in Traditional Music in Ireland, says "If one is attempting to define traditional stylistic aspects of Irish music it is clear that they must be sought primarily on instruments which have help to shape the tradition... players of traditional instruments have a built-in protection against straying outside the tradition."

I myself would never notice whether those 3rd register notes are in tune or not, because I only play traditional music in their traditional keys and ranges on my MK.

I will say that I've owned, now, five different MK Low Ds and there are tuning differences between some of them. The main difference is the approach to D: some MKs have a flat Bottom D and an in-tune Middle D, others have an in-tune Bottom D and a sharp Middle D. (There appears to be a built-in pitch differential between those two Ds.) So if you have one of the MKs that has a sharp Middle D, you might well have a sharp 3rd octave D as well.

Let the attacks upon this post begin! I'm cool with it. Richard

[NicoMoreno]

I'll just leave this here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL1Og2Ak8P0

Not attacking, but would gently suggest you listen to more than just the Chieftains. Paddy Moloney is great, but there are a ton of equally great pipers, and there are loads of traditional tunes that go above the B. I would agree that the majority don't, but there are a lot of things you could argue about the majority....

[Mr.Gumby]

Likewise B is the highest note possible on an keyless uilleann chanter... well there's a screaming high D that's possible but not of much musical use.

I too would say that's nonsense. FWIW I have been playing the Queen of the Fairies for nearly thirty years now. On the pipes. And Thomond Bridge, The Cuckoo etc etc. And I can be called upon to do the Ash Grove or the Waterford waltz from memory if need be.

Irish fiddlers traditionally don't shift

Maybe try asking any if they fancy a shift! They may surprise you.


[edited to put quote tags where a url tag had mistakenly slipped it]

[Sirchronique]

Pancelticpiper, I use the high C natural for Caislean an Oir , when I play it on whistle, although I'm not sure what the most common key for that tune is, and I play it in a different key on stringed instruments..

Wasn't the MK website originally something like "Jazz Whistle" originally?

[Peter Duggan]

Bottom line, I don't think it's realistic to expect an instrument designed for a certain genre to perform things outwith that genre.

Who says the MK's designed (solely) for (your conception of) Irish music? Surely not Misha?

Bottom line, I expect all my whistles to do two full octaves with sensible/manageable* (not necessarily identical) upper register fingerings, the single MK I've tried did and it sounds like others do too.

*XOOOOO B and OOOOOO C# must at least speak, with something producing in-tune C nat and D.

[bogman]

I'm glad you brought that up Peter. I was reading the thread with interest and while the discussion about Irish music is fine it's not particularly relevant to an MK whistle. With Misha being Scottish and primarily a Scottish player I don't think fitting in with the Irish idiom was his main concern, though through the nature of it being a whistle it's ideal for Irish music as well as Scottish.

My MK plays in tune with the normal fingering throughout the range up to the high d. Blower, i would play the regular fingering as suggested earlier and get used to the MK before worrying if it's the whistle itself that's out of tune. It's more likely you just have to get used to the whistle.

[FascinatedWanderer]

Pretty sure the contradiction goes up to the E. Pretty sure Molloy plays that too.