Geoffrey Ellis Low Whistle Review

[plunk111]

OK - I am the next guy on the tour... Here are my thoughts (and those of the people in my session - I just got home):

The good:
- These are the most beautiful whistles we have ever seen - meticulous craftsmanship and attention to detail
- The low octaves of both are gorgeous - very "woody" and "whistley" (i.e. not too "flutey")
- Good cross-octave performance and no tendency to "break"
- Very nice low-D (and low-F)
- Hole spacing is OK - I can play the low-D without pipers' grip, but just barely. Pipers' is pretty much required (but that is normal anyway)
- Tuning is OK with a couple of exceptions (see below)

The not-so-good:
- We didn't like the "fat" beak - in fact, I had to concentrate a little to avoid air escaping out the side. I could get used to it, but I do think the beak is a little too "fat"
- The upper octave is a little to "breathy" for our taste - yes, I know Feadoggie liked that, but we dont
- The whistle is a little quiet overall - fine if miked, but not quite loud enough for non-amplified sessions
- The C-nat is a bit problemmatic (I did test it using a tuner) - I usually use OXX OOO for the mid-range C and OXX XXO for the upper, but these whistles seem to want OXX XOX for both. I could get used to it (I guess)
- To get the upper octave notes in tune, you need to push them - a lot. This makes the air requirement higher than other whistles I've played.
- The low-D tends to go a little too sharp if you push it (BUT it doesn't "break")

General comments:
- A whistle that costs this much needs to be tunable (yes, I know the difficulties with this, but...)
- The maker mentions that he is thinking about going to a conical bore - this is a GREAT idea! There would be almost no competition with this design and I think it would fix some of the problems mentioned above, as well as making the whistle accessible to people with smaller hands.

Bottom line:
- At this price point, the competition is MK, Burke, etc - this whistle is WAY more beautiful than ANY of those, but it just doesn't play in up to their standards (yet)

I should mention that I have owned the following low-Ds: Susato (with and without the key), Howard, Burke Viper (one aluminum, one brass), and currently play an old, non-tunable Chieftain (that I love!). I've not played an MK and have sat next to a Copeland a few times in sessions.

Pat Plunkett

[Geoffrey Ellis]

Good feedback, Pat--thank you!

A quick question for whistlers everywhere: Being new to the world of ITM I'm curious about the fingering of the scales.

(EDIT: I misread Pat's post and everything I said here about the fingering is wrong! Correction below). For example, when I tune my whistles, I tune each hole "open" with no holes below it closed. So the fingering for a C natural at the time of tuning is: O O O O O O

Sometimes to make the grip easier I might do this: O O O O X O but I won't cover any of the holes near the top of the scale.

Same for the second octave. If a player grips it like this: OXX XOX and tries to play the second octave C, it will definitely be flat and require some force.

So here is my question: Is there a standard fingering for whistles? I've played Burke and MK whistles as well as some Sausato high Ds and I've never cross fingered like that. They played in tune just opening one hole at a time and leaving the holes below open. But a lot of whistle players seem to like to be able to "push" the whistle and perhaps that changes things (I don't push them very hard when tuning). Perhaps with certain techniques the cross fingered notes are more accurate? I welcome some input on this.

I do have plans to include a tuning slide, though I should mention that it would add substantially to the cost. Doing a metal slide in a thin-walled wooden tube is a substantial labor, so it would certainly change the price point. In defense of the pricing of these whistles I would point out that the cost is based upon the fact that they are wood. Unlike metal whistles, I can't use pre-drawn metal tubing. A metal whistle maker doesn't have to personally manufacture the metal tubing for the body (though there might be some who have done it--I'd be curious to know about that). They can buy pre-manufactured tubing or have some custom drawn so they don't have the actual labor of creating it. To make a thin-walled wooden tube adds to the cost because it is wood and has to be (carefully) manufactured before the whistle making can go to the next phase.

So that is what a player is paying for: the beauty of wood (and the challenging nature of working with it), along with the different character that wood gives to the voice. I'm very keen to make the tuning and performance characteristics absolutely top of the line within the limits of the material, but I doubt that I can ever make them as inexpensively as metal. That is unless I can find some manufacturer in China who will create the wooden bodies for a few bucks each However, I do believe there is always room to refine the performance characteristics.

In any case, I'm very keen to know what sort of fingering other whistlers favor. If Pat's method is the common method, then I'll certainly make some adjustments to how I approach the tuning.

[Mr.Gumby]

So the fingering for a C natural at the time of tuning is: O O O O O O

You will probably have to rethink either the phrasing of that statement or your tuning scheme.

[MTGuru]

So the fingering for a C natural at the time of tuning is: O O O O O O

C natural? Really?

[ Crossed with Gumby. ]

[narrowdog]

Good feedback, Pat--thank you!

A quick question for whistlers everywhere: Being new to the world of ITM I'm curious about the fingering of the scales.

For example, when I tune my whistles, I tune each hole "open" with no holes below it closed. So the fingering for a C natural at the time of tuning is: O O O O O O

Sometimes to make the grip easier I might do this: O O O O X O but I won't cover any of the holes near the top of the scale.

Geoffrey,
If I've got this right and I think I have, OOOOOO would give a C# on a D whistle
and OXXOOO or OXXXOX or other variations on the same theme,
would give a Cnat depending on the whistle.
Some like a Sindt in D you have to half hole the top hole or just fudge it a bit with OXXOOO
Second octave C, I tend to use OXXXXO but I don't go there if I can help it.

[Geoffrey Ellis]

Whoops!

Sorry folks, brain seizure on my part! Not C natural...C#. Don't ask how I read C# when Pat said C natural...just woke up and was clearly not at my most scintillating.

No, Pat's fingering for C natural is correct--it's the same one I use. On reflection I don't know how I managed to continue misreading that after seeing the actual fingering he posted.

[Feadoggie]

[ Crossed with Gumby. ]

Yes, and we may be talking at crossed purposes a bit too.

Geoffrey,the OOO OOO fingering should be the C#, the major seventh, which could in some circles be called the natural seventh of the D scale.

The C natural, the flatted seventh, is fingered in several ways sometimes depending on context within the tune.

The DOO OOO fingering is used for C natural where the top hole is half closed is one which works on all whistles but takes some skills to use reliably and adequate venting to sound a strong note can be an issue depending on how large the top hole is made.

Another C natural common to most whistles uses OXX XOX as the fingering. This is convenient when playing triplets that involve the second octave D, usually played as OXX XXX. So you only lift/lower one finger on the BH2 hole to go between the C and D notes frequently seen in tunes in the key of G.

Still another C natural is fingered OXX OOO or even OXX XOO depending on the whistle.

Whistle players do prefer to be able to play the upper end (A,B, Cnat, C#) of the second octave without covering the bottom three holes at all, although some whistles I've owned have needed that extra support. I tried that on the Ellis low F whistle and it did seen to help the high B (in a D whistle frame of reference) sometimes.

And I can see what Pat is saying on all counts. Thanks, Pat. Differing observations should be expected on whistle tours.

Hope that helps.

By the way. In my playing of the Ellis whistles I used all those fingerings at some time or another. I particularly used the OXX XOX, DOO OOO and OXX OOO fingerings for C natural.
I will admit to pushing quite consciously while recording Ashokan Farewell to hit the top notes reliably. It's not the easiest second octave, nor tuned the way I tune my whistles, but the notes are there. There's always room to improve. I learn new stuff most every day. And the only way to do that is to have discussion like this. I feel fortunate to have been able to sit with some well known players to get their feedback. So let's give Geoffrey some constructive feedback. My discussions with him show that he is keen to get things right.

Feadoggie

[plunk111]

Glad the C# / C-nat issue is worked out. I do prefer OXX OOO for the middle C - I thought this was kinda standard.

On the tuning issue... Geoffrey - you talk about the limitations of thin-walled wood. Why not make it thicker and then use a wood-on-wood tuning method (I.e. a longer tenon)? I think a conical bore would help with this, too.

On the pricing issue... No matter how beautiful it is, it needs to play well. I completely understand why you have to charge what you do and it would be a fair price if it played as well as the competition. In fact, I think you could ask even more!

I should also mention that most of my comments were directed toward the low-D. We all liked the low-F better than the low-D, but most of the comments apply to both.

BTW, the whistles are on the way to the next person (Phil, I think? Names are in the box!)

[Geoffrey Ellis]

Pat,

I have given some thought to the thicker walls--in fact my prototype that has a tuning slide does have thicker walls around the slide (no way around that if I'm to avoid splitting). It's conceivable that I might even do a wood on wood tenon--that might be a bit easier than using metal.

I didn't want to get into conical bore whistles for a few reasons (having to make more reamers is part of it). I know there are makers who do it, but since most whistles have cylindrical bores I was more interested in creating a wooden version. However, never say never There may come a day when I decide to go down that road.

I agree about the fact that the flute must play well. Hopefully by the end of this tour I'll have received enough feedback to apply some tweaks to my current design. Ideally I'd like to arrive at the point where a whistler will play one and say "this is as good as any of my whistles, even if it is different". I'm particularly interested in getting the tuning to the point where it works best for the largest percentage of players. The nature of wood means that these will probably never be as loud as a metal whistle. Metal is so dense and reflective--more than wood can ever be. However, I'll certainly get as close as I can!

[Peter Duggan]

So you only lift/lower one finger on the BH2 hole to go between the C and D notes frequently seen in tunes in the key of G.

Same's true* of OXO XXX (which is generally acceptable on whistles that do OXX OOO), so my preference is for instruments where these are good.

* (Edited) except that it's T3 here, but still one finger!

Whistle players do prefer to be able to play the upper end (A,B, Cnat, C#) of the second octave without covering the bottom three holes at all

Agree re. A, B and C#, but quite happy myself to go OXX XXO, OXO XXO or whatever for the upper C nat so long as it's there somewhere!

[Feadoggie]

Same's true of OXO XXX (which is generally acceptable on whistles that do OXX OOO), so my preference is for instruments where these are good.

Good point, Peter. That might warrant some discussion. I've only run into that fingering with some early 19th Century flutes. So I'd inquire as to how many others use that fingering. Anyody? It obivously works for you.

Agree re. A, B and C#, but quite happy myself to go OXX XXO, OXO XXO or whatever for the upper C nat so long as it's there somewhere!

Sure! I guess that's the way I feel right off the mark. So, just to clarify my thinking when I noted that. The notes are there on these Ellis whistles. Some wind instruments do need the support of the lower hand covering holes to hit the high notes. But many whistlers may not be as adaptable or adventurous as us. And most whistles do not require that type of fingering. Simple fingerings are preferred in my mind. Geoffrey's whistles don't require the use of the lower hand but, as Pat noted, you do have to push to get there. So, in my experience, supporting the notes with the lower hand can be an optional method of hitting those notes more reliably with less of a push. Folks in the tour can try that on these whistles and share what they think.

Perfect world, I'd rather not push hard or use the lower hand for those notes. But I can man up and do either if the rest of the instrument is giving me something that other whistles don't.

If Geoffrey can preserve the thick tone of these whistles and smooth out the breath curve a little bit, I'd be a happy camper.

We'll see what others think as the tour progresses.

Feadoggie

[brianholton]

Now, isn't this thread just what makes C&F indispensable? Fascinating discussion, and a wonderfully precise and well-written review by Feadoggie. Good sound samples, too.

What a joy to see the sentence "The chatoyance of the bubinga is mesmerizing." (It sent me to the OED to see what chatoyance is - it's the sort of cat's-eye effect, the jewel-like shimmer in the wood.)

Repeat this mantra until the desire fades and all the lust is gone: "I have enough whistles. I have enough whistles. I have enough whistles. I have enough whistles...."

Oh my

[Cayden]

Now, isn't this thread just what makes C&F indispensable? Fascinating discussion, and a wonderfully precise and well-written review by Feadoggie. Good sound samples, too.

What a joy to see the sentence "The chatoyance of the bubinga is mesmerizing." (It sent me to the OED to see what chatoyance is - it's the sort of cat's-eye effect, the jewel-like shimmer in the wood.)

Repeat this mantra until the desire fades and all the lust is gone: "I have enough whistles. I have enough whistles. I have enough whistles. I have enough whistles...."

Oh my

Enough whistles???

Cayden

[Steve Bliven]

Enough whistles???

Cayden

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. He's incurably infected.

Best wishes.

Steve

[Cayden]

Enough whistles???

Cayden

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. He's incurably infected.

Best wishes.

Steve

Hey Steve,
We all have to go some way.

Cheers,
Cayden