Highest price ever (?) on an anonymous German flute

[LorenzoFlute]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221147614101?ss ... 1555.l2649

Can you believe it??? Sure le emb hole seems well made, and the rings around the ivory section are not that common, and has a decent case, but...!

And I'm selling an excellent German flute for only 400 euros and no takers yet (ok I didn't put pictures and I'm not overdoing with the ad as I'm not in a hurry, but still)

[dunnp]

I just posted about it on the session. Was thinking of doing the same here but for price policing.

Last month someone got a real Meyer for 250, this month this.

Someone is willing to pay a large sum of money for having this flute tested by Grey.

[jemtheflute]

Ah, someone noticed! I've been biting my tongue. I have had some private discussion of this elsewhere and I have it on good authority that the vendor is GL himself.

Here's an edited version of some of my comments/thoughts:

That came up in my regular eBay searches on Thursday afternoon. I very nearly started a thread on C&F about it, but decided not to start a barracking thread on this one, (especially as he's a C&F member, if not a very active one) though if anyone else starts one I won't hold back (much). . The man's barking! (Not news, I think.) And, more to my surprise as I'd have assumed otherwise, apparently doesn't know his flutes!

It is quite clearly a pretty typical anonymous "nach Meyer" type German made flute from the 1870-1940 era - probably earlier than later in that. It for near-enough certain is not US made, though it's just possible that workers from the Markneukirchen/Graslitz hotbed did set up workshops in the States and make the same as they were used to making at home - no way to demonstrate that and far more likely it's an import. The ivory embouchure barrel isn't especially unusual, though is less common than all-ivory or all-wood heads - and IMO has no effect on value whatever. The GS keys are bog standard.

OK, so as an example playing at CP and with decent intonation it is a viable and saleable instrument. (Most are low pitch circa diapason normal, and finding ones at either pitch which have decent scaling is a lottery.) And, for heaven's sake, the barrel crack has been filled (crudely) and not properly repaired! Cracks in ivory are a nightmare and, if not through the embouchure, filling those is acceptable. But not ones in wood.

Even if uncracked (or at least properly repaired) and demonstrably as good a player as this seems to be (though a quick listen to GL's clips seem to suggest he's having to work at the intonation!), fully overhauled and properly set up, CP nach Meyers are worth no more than roughly £350/U$550 (I do them up/sell them for up to around that). No-one in their right mind/who knows what they're doing is going to buy this even at his starting price, let alone the Buy It Now. NO WAY! The problem is, Larsen has disciples who might just buy it at that price level because it's from/"vouched for by" him.

I must say I didn't have a high opinion of GL before based on clips of his playing (very competent, but.....), his music stylistic choices in general (some songs - and I mean literally songs - I've encountered on YT!!! ), what I know of his book (sight unseen) and also his particular style of smarmy self-promotion. Ugh!

Oh well. We shall see.

EDIT before posting
I just went to check something on the eBay listing and alas I prophesied aright : some poor mug has bought it for U$2k.
They could have had Lorenzo's at least equally good (and better repaired) flute for a fraction of the price, or even my current offering - a very nice mid-range English flute (and a rather better one than this!) for less, even with transatlantic carriage etc.
Trouble is, if I put that on eBay (which I don't intend to do), I doubt it'll sell for what I want for it/value it at/it is worth!

[Peter Duggan]

what I know of his book (sight unseen)

Have to take issue with you there, Jem... not because of this flute sale (which I've just read about here) or because he doesn't impress you (when I'm neither for nor against him as a player) but because you're criticising 'sight unseen'! So doubt you'd agree with absolutely everything in the book when I don't either and you'll probably never find two experienced players anywhere who agree on absolutely everything, but surely it's still a tad, well, dismissive to dismiss a thought-provoking source of unrivalled scope (from which you can take or reject whatever you see fit) on the basis of hearsay!

[jemtheflute]

Fair comment, Peter, up to a point. I'm sure I'd find some stuff of value in the book and I know from all I've read about it/seen quoted or cited from it over the years here that I agrree with some of it. But, although if one fell on my lap I would assuredly browse through it, the overall impression I've formed is that it isn't worth me acquiring it. I'm not "against" him as a player (he's more competent than I am, for sure!) - nor did I write that. The fact I'm unimpressed based on what I do know (and am extra-unimpressed right now!) doesn't mean I'm closed to getting better informed and even a more favourable impression in future, but I'm not motivated to do so.

[MadmanWithaWhistle]

I have his book, in fact, its where I first started learning flute/whistle in the ITM style. While I find his playing somewhat mechanical, his analysis of what make ITM tick is spot on. I think his playing style really suits the teaching part of his career, as it's easy to distinguish what embellishments he's employing. If you've already formulated your opinion of him you probably will see too much of those same characteristics you dislike, but from a learner's perspective his book was excellent for getting up to speed quickly.

But still, selling a substandard instrument for an outrageous price... That's really not what I expected from someone who seemed so interested in furthering the music.

[dunnp]

Like Lorenzo and Jem, I watch all the flutes that sell on ebay and from other auctions and dealers and have done so for over ten years so I have afair idea of value of antiques.
Here is a case where we could have saved someone from seriously overpaying for a flute.
I did not post about it because of
a, price policing policy
b, The usual backlash if anyone criticizes Grey

I figured well the smart buyer knows the value of what he or he is paying for. If one is a beginner and new to flutes they should contact an experienced player to ask them the value.

What do the mods think here?

I realize its not chiffs job to tell sellers and buyers what to do and I think the policing policy is wise but I also hate to see some one taken.
Then again lesson learned for there next flute purchase.

Is it alright to discuss it after the fact?

[Peter Duggan]

I'm not "against" him as a player (he's more competent than I am, for sure!) - nor did I write that.

No (agreed!), but neither did I (just have no strong feelings about him as a player, and nearly wrote that instead).

I did not post about it because of
a, price policing policy

But doesn't 'against the rules of this forum to comment on the forum about the instruments listed by others or the prices posted' strictly apply only to 'on board' sales?

b, The usual backlash if anyone criticizes Grey

On which note (just for the record, so not suggesting that's aimed at me!) I'm simply defending his book (which I rate highly), know nothing about his flute dealing, can't check the video of the flute linked in the eBay listing anymore because he's removed it (presumably post-sale), but have seen the photos and understand that it appears to be a very expensive 'nach Meyer' (hence enough raised eyebrows to make discussion almost inevitable when it's not an 'on board' sale).

[benhall.1]

What do the mods think here?

Hereunder a mix of personal comment and Mod-speak. This post is Mod-speak. I will then post separately some personal thoughts.

Mod-speak: Peter has got in first, in his meta-Moderating way . But then, I hadn't chipped in, so maybe - just maybe, mind you - I might forgive him.

Here's an extract from Point 8. of the CCCP:

Criticising posters for the price asked for items, either in the UIE or in commercial posts, is not allowed.

So, it's clear from that that the intention is to ban price policing of members posting here, on C&F (as flagged by Peter). However, I think it's fair to say that it makes not only us Mods, but other C&F members also, uneasy when there is any price policing criticism of our members, wherever they have posted their goods for sale (well, it makes me uneasy, at any rate). If this thread had been concerning a post on the Boards, it would have been deleted by now. It isn't and, so long as it remains interesting, of relevance to the wider forum-reading public, and not too vitriolic, there's a chance that it will live yet.

[Peter Duggan]

Mod-speak: Peter has got in first, in his meta-Moderating way . But then, I hadn't chipped in, so maybe - just maybe, mind you - I might forgive him.

No meta-moderating intent, Ben... just quoting the rules (within a question of my own) and most definitely not replying to the question (just spotted now) 'What do the mods think here?'!

[benhall.1]

OK, now for the personal stuff.

Jem's post above - the long one (surprise, surprise) third in the thread - bothers me. Despite several caveats which Jem seems to have thrown in simply in order to deflect from any accusation of bias on his part, that post just looks to me as if it's born out of some kind of prejudicial animosity towards Grey Larsen. Now, Grey can look after himself. But I personally don't find comments like the following either relevant to the point in hand, or in any way helpful:

I didn't have a high opinion of GL before based on clips of his playing (very competent, but.....), his music stylistic choices in general (some songs - and I mean literally songs - I've encountered on YT!!! ), what I know of his book (sight unseen) and also his particular style of smarmy self-promotion. Ugh!

In fact, as is happening with this post of mine, it does strike me as almost an invitation to criticise Jem's position. A shame, as he makes some interesting points in the rest of that post.

BTW, I rather like GL's music, though I have to admit that I didn't until fairly recently. I don't own any of his CDs, but then I own hardly any of anybody's. I also don't think his music has all that much to do with Irish trad, even when he's playing Irish trad tunes, but I've learned to appreciate it for what it is, and to enjoy the occasional clip. I almost feel as if Jem is deliberately not allowing himself to see the music in what GL does.

Oh, and now that a nach Meyer has gone for $2k, anybody fancy a beautiful (and beautifully restored by Jemtheflute, no less ) Henry Fentum for what it's actually worth? (Which, in any "normal" market, would be about £2k sterling.) No? Well, if you all change your mind, you know where to find me ...

[benhall.1]

Mod-speak: Peter has got in first, in his meta-Moderating way . But then, I hadn't chipped in, so maybe - just maybe, mind you - I might forgive him.

No meta-moderating intent, Ben... just quoting the rules (within a question of my own) and most definitely not replying to the question (just spotted now) 'What do the mods think here?'!

Fair enough, Peter. Just a gentle nudge on my part. Us Mods are a sensitive breed, you know.

Oh, and thank you for taking the trouble to read the rules. Much appreciated.

[LorenzoFlute]

When I started the thread I actually thought that the seller was some acquaintance of Grey that asked him to make the recording.
What really amazed me was not the asking price, as you see plenty of overpriced flutes around, but that it actually sold and in a really short time. The buyer must have been looking for a flute for some time but without informing himself much, got the money for it and finally decided to get it after hearing the recording and reading the over enthusiastic description (unless he's very rich of course).

[Steve Bliven]

I don't envy the moderators sorting out this kind of situation.

On one hand, there's the quite appropriate ban against price policing. I agree that it's up to the market to sort out a suitable price and value. One person's rip-off can be another's bargain.

On the other, there is the "Pakistani flutes will make you sterile" sticky(or whatever the real name is) that has been in place for a considerable time, that generally promotes the idea that such instruments aren't worth the money.

I think it's great when someone with Jem's experience comments that an instrument is probably German—not made in the US, that past repairs are questionable, highlights issues regarding working with ivory, etc. that folks like me, a still naive consumer rather that an experienced repair person or player, wouldn't necessarily recognize. It helps me make a more informed personal evaluation of the instrument. (No, I wasn't the buyer.) It's also helpful to get a sense of comparable sales of similar instruments.

On the other, I'm far less comfortable with estimations of a seller's character, reasons for sale, legitimacy of birth, etc. as part of the commentary.

My vote would be for the moderators to lean toward keeping comments toward factual assessments of the instrument and descriptions thereof and keeping away from statements about the value/appropriate price of a particular instrument and/or the seller (which goes back to the precedent of the "Pakistani flutes make you sterile" sticky).

Of course, this is why the Moderators get big bucks and major prestige...

Best wishes.

Steve

[Mr.Gumby]

This thread on the session.org has the e-mail GL sent out to his mailing list to announce the sale:

Hello friends.

Just a quick note to let you know that I am selling an Irish flute on eBay. The auction ends on Nov. 7th.

Here's the link to the auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221147614101?ss ... 1555.l2649

It's an 8-key, 19th century wooden flute with an ivory embouchure inset. It's in excellent condition and plays beautifully. Even the low C and C# keys work really well, which is unusual.

At the eBay auction page there is a YouTube video of me playing a couple tunes on it.

Perhaps you know someone who would be interested. If so, please feel free to pass along this message.

All the best,

Grey